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Jose Reyes > Albert????


Juggernaut55

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i havent bought my Fantasy baseball book yet...but i've flipped through a few and saw in a few that Jose Reyes is ranked above Albert Pujols...now i'm a little biased living in STL and being a huge Fan of the cardinals...but i fail to see how Reyes is a more solid Fantasy pick that Pujols. Maybe i'm the only person who wonders this...lemme know what you think.

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well personally i'm biased towards power in the first couple of rounds so i would pick pujols personally... but the argument (and it's a very valid one) is that speed is hard to come by without hurting other categories (low rbi, low ba, low hr, etc) and he's one of a select few that won't hurt you while really boosting speed... he is also a member of ANOTHER elite class: SS... there are maybe 4 SS who are rock solid and another 2 who are on the verge... beyond that it's a sh!tshow... if he was not a ss, reyes would be a low 1st, high 2nd round pick, but that SS depth is scary and that vaults him up to the top of the 1st round...

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If both players exactly hit their projections then yes, Reyes will prove to be the more valuable fantasy asset. 60+ steals is simply gigantic and guarantees you compete in that category. (He's what Carl Crawford was really supposed to be but at a middle infield position) Add in the 15-20 homers, over 100 runs and the likely .290 average and Reyes has more total value, especially considering position. However, the problem with a player who derives a great deal of their value from speed is that any leg injury and you've greatly sapped that potential. Pujols has proven that injury or not, he's going to put up monster stud totals and therefore gives you more security for such an early selection.

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yeah i can see where you two are goin..i'll definately agree with Zara i feel like the consistency of albert pushes him up a little more, (i would also like to put a disclaimer, that i'm not trying to argue lol i just wanna know other peoples opinions on the issue)

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I think people need to be careful this year tagging SS as the usual hard to come by productive position. I am neither arguing for or against selecting either player over the other, but SS this year is much deeper than in previous years. I'd go to say SS is deeper than 3B this year.

But, to add some substance to the topic at hand, I'd personally lean towards Albert purely because he is insanely productive 100% healthy or not.

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For me, while steals are hard to come by, average is harder to come by, so in Roto leagues the average bonus that Pujols offers sways it to him for me. You can find a Mike Cameron later in the draft for 25 SBs or an Adam Dunn for 40 HRs, but they'll hurt your average, having Pujols allows you to take that hit. And this is from someone who thinks SS is a really thin position

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For me, while steals are hard to come by, average is harder to come by, so in Roto leagues the average bonus that Pujols offers sways it to him for me. You can find a Mike Cameron later in the draft for 25 SBs or an Adam Dunn for 40 HRs, but they'll hurt your average, having Pujols allows you to take that hit. And this is from someone who thinks SS is a really thin position

While I'm not disagreeing, the flipside is if you draft Reyes, you don't have to chase those .250 hitting speed guys like Cameron or Bourn nor do you need to the .250 power hitters either. It all depends on how you like to create your baseline. If you're a person who analyzes skills instead of stats, you could draft an entire team of guys who should hit .285 and do very well in AVG while not losing other stats. Like I said earlier, I'd still be inclined to take Pujols since a more minor injury won't stop him from hitting .320 while a minor leg injury to Reyes could brutally sap his value.

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I think people need to be careful this year tagging SS as the usual hard to come by productive position. I am neither arguing for or against selecting either player over the other, but SS this year is much deeper than in previous years. I'd go to say SS is deeper than 3B this year.

Agreed. Reyes, Rollins, HanRam, Alexei, Jeter (but barely), Peralta, Aviles (maybe), Tulo, Hardy all provide really good value at shortstop.

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Agreed. Reyes, Rollins, HanRam, Alexei, Jeter (but barely), Peralta, Aviles (maybe), Tulo, Hardy all provide really good value at shortstop.

I love playing devil's advocate but only 3 of those SS's are elite level whereas at 1b, one could argue that A. Pujols, R. Howard, M. Cabrera, M. Teixeira, L. Berkman, P. Fielder and J. Morneau all provide elite level stats.

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Agreed. Reyes, Rollins, HanRam, Alexei, Jeter (but barely), Peralta, Aviles (maybe), Tulo, Hardy all provide really good value at shortstop.

I think you just made a greater case for Reyes then against. After HanRam, that list is pretty bad, IMO.

Young players who are entirely hackers like Alexei Ramirez and Mike Aviles are almost due for regression, as once pitchers get word that they'll swing at near anything, they allow them to swing at nearly anything. I generally don't believe in the Sophmore slump as a whole, but these guys will be victims of it because pitchers will adjust to them.

Jeter showed the first signs of a player on the way downhill last season IMO, and considering he's 34 years old, he's right at the point in his career where the decline should be expected.

I don't think anybody knows which player Troy Tulowitzki actually is....the one who was excellent in 2007 or awful in 2008?

I do like Peralta and Hardy, but they're clearly a level behind the Top 3.

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Young players who are entirely hackers like Alexei Ramirez and Mike Aviles are almost due for regression, as once pitchers get word that they'll swing at near anything, they allow them to swing at nearly anything. I generally don't believe in the Sophmore slump as a whole, but these guys will be victims of it because pitchers will adjust to them.

I think Alexei might be a little more immune to regression because he's had 7 years experience in the Cuban baseball leagues, even leading their league in homers.

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Going by Rotoworld's draft that Funston put up on the big board, if it were a 12 team league, and you had the 3rd pick, here's the best SS/1B combo you can get with both orders.

RD. 1 Pick 3 : Pujols

RD. 2 Pick 22(overall) Best SS still available are Furcal? Alexei? Jeter? Tulo?

OR

RD. 1 Pick 3 : Reyes

RD. 2 Pick 22(overall) Best 1B available Fielder, Morneau, and Ortiz

Now obviously if you choose Pujols, you're not going to take a SS with your second round pick, but to say the drop off b/w SS' is much greater then the drop off b/w 1B is an understatement.

Really though, it all depends on how you prefer to draft, you cant go wrong either way. Some people just prefer to draft a certain way and that's why some will have Pujols ahead of Reyes and vice versa.

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Going by Rotoworld's draft that Funston put up on the big board, if it were a 12 team league, and you had the 3rd pick, here's the best SS/1B combo you can get with both orders.

RD. 1 Pick 3 : Pujols

RD. 2 Pick 22(overall) Best SS still available are Furcal? Alexei? Jeter? Tulo?

OR

RD. 1 Pick 3 : Reyes

RD. 2 Pick 22(overall) Best 1B available Fielder, Morneau, and Ortiz

Now obviously if you choose Pujols, you're not going to take a SS with your second round pick, but to say the drop off b/w SS' is much greater then the drop off b/w 1B is an understatement.

Really though, it all depends on how you prefer to draft, you cant go wrong either way. Some people just prefer to draft a certain way and that's why some will have Pujols ahead of Reyes and vice versa.

To be fair though, no one is taking any of those SS's in the 2nd round and you could still grab an Ace, 3B, or a few other ways. Personally though, if I can pair up Jose with Fielder or Morneau, I go that way all day.

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Going by Rotoworld's draft that Funston put up on the big board, if it were a 12 team league, and you had the 3rd pick, here's the best SS/1B combo you can get with both orders.

RD. 1 Pick 3 : Pujols

RD. 2 Pick 22(overall) Best SS still available are Furcal? Alexei? Jeter? Tulo?

OR

RD. 1 Pick 3 : Reyes

RD. 2 Pick 22(overall) Best 1B available Fielder, Morneau, and Ortiz

Now obviously if you choose Pujols, you're not going to take a SS with your second round pick, but to say the drop off b/w SS' is much greater then the drop off b/w 1B is an understatement.

Really though, it all depends on how you prefer to draft, you cant go wrong either way. Some people just prefer to draft a certain way and that's why some will have Pujols ahead of Reyes and vice versa.

This sums up why Reyes is more valued in the draft. It's not a question of Reyes vs Pujols, it's a question of the deep crop of 1st basemen against the very thin SS position.

Compare the top 10 SS to the top 10 1b.

Hanley

Reyes

Rollins

Furcal

Drew

A Ramirez

Tulo

Jeter

Peralta

Young

vs

Pujols

Cabrera

Howard

Teixera

Berkman

Fielder

Morneau

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Not to mention Lee/Huff/Votto/Pena

There's just more quality you can gather later at the 1b position.

Not that you're going to go wrong with Pujols!

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I think you just made a greater case for Reyes then against. After HanRam, that list is pretty bad, IMO.

Young players who are entirely hackers like Alexei Ramirez and Mike Aviles are almost due for regression, as once pitchers get word that they'll swing at near anything, they allow them to swing at nearly anything. I generally don't believe in the Sophmore slump as a whole, but these guys will be victims of it because pitchers will adjust to them.

Jeter showed the first signs of a player on the way downhill last season IMO, and considering he's 34 years old, he's right at the point in his career where the decline should be expected.

I don't think anybody knows which player Troy Tulowitzki actually is....the one who was excellent in 2007 or awful in 2008?

I do like Peralta and Hardy, but they're clearly a level behind the Top 3.

Good point. What I meant was that most of them will not hurt you and most will help in HR, SB or both. Not to the extent Reyes or HanRam will, obviously. But you can get most of them much later, well after all the great 1b are gone. But to be fair, I'm in a perpetual keeper league, so I'm definitely out of my element.

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To be fair though, no one is taking any of those SS's in the 2nd round and you could still grab an Ace, 3B, or a few other ways. Personally though, if I can pair up Jose with Fielder or Morneau, I go that way all day.

Yea, i mentioned in that post that you wouldnt be taking a SS in the Second Round if you choose to go with Pujols.

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I think people need to be careful this year tagging SS as the usual hard to come by productive position. I am neither arguing for or against selecting either player over the other, but SS this year is much deeper than in previous years. I'd go to say SS is deeper than 3B this year.

But, to add some substance to the topic at hand, I'd personally lean towards Albert purely because he is insanely productive 100% healthy or not.

Sorry, but I totally disagree.

The usual midlevel solid guys that we used to count on are in clear decline like Jeter, Furcal, Tejada, and Young with Carlos Guillen gone and removed from SS.

The younger crop that came up is avg. at best with almost no speed in Drew, Tulo, Hardy, Peralta, and Aviles. All solid, but none of them represent the speed that most of us like from the MI position. If they were OF's, they would drop 4-5 rounds in value easily.

The only young stud guys IMO are Hanley and Reyes. Rollins is holding on in the third spot, but he might also be suffering a little bit of decline and the mediocrity of the position is pushing his value as such that he is still going in the early second to third round despite his awful season last year. If Rollins played any other position but SS, you would have seen his value fall at least 2-4 rounds.

The only rookie that was worth noticing last year was Alexei Ramirez, and whil he is exciting, it doesn't make up for the fact that so many other guys are declining.

The rookie class coming up also looks like we may be waiting a little while with Andrus, Beckam and Escobar leading the way, but all are still very very young, but other guys that were supposed to be ready like Brignac falling on their face.

This season the SS class is one of the weakest ones in several years in my opinion. I'm hoping Drew or Tulowitzki get hot and move up, but otherwise, I'm not really optimistic about the current SS class compared to what we've had for the last 4-5 years when all the decliners that I mentioned were in their prime.

I could buy either Pujols or Reyes in that spot for the reason's Zara mentioned. It may come down to roto or h2h as well. In a roto, you need those steals desperately and Reyes sets you up there instantly while strengthening a thin position and not hurting you in any categories. I always work hard to get early speed in roto leagues. In a h2h, where you want to bludgeon your opponent on a weekly basis, you may want Pujols instead as the guy that will get you more counting stats. Pujols is likely to go ahead of Reyes in most drafts based on track record and consistency, but I certainly wouldn't fault taking Reyes over him.

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Both players are talented but there is another aspect to consider as well. Roto vs head2head also matter in this decision. For the most part Pujols is by far the more consistent player of the two, while Reyes often can disappear for weeks at a time. That plus the steals makes Reyes the better player in Roto, but Pujols definately has the edge in head2head leagues. Either way, i think a better debate may be Hanley vs Pujols...

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For those of you who play Fantasy points style:

Pujols was the best hitter in my league last year and Reyes was second.

Pujols had 626pts last year

Reyes had 581pts last year

Just a 45pt difference! For my league 45pts just isn't enough of a difference to offset the positional differences.

Plus as someone has already said (MoustacheToes, I think) I'd rather have Reyes and Fielder/Morneau than Albert & Jeter/Tejada. The gap between Fielder/Morneau and Jeter/Tejada is gonna be larger than the Reyes & Pujols gap.

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