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Jose Reyes > Albert????


Juggernaut55

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i dont understand how Reyes has been a top 10 pick the past few seasons. it makes no sense to me. yes he does give you elite production in steals and runs, but he doesnt hit for an eye popping average, and has below average power. yes thats a fine fantasy player but it just makes no sense to me how hes been a 1st round pick. i recently argued with my friend you could take ryan braun with your 1st round pick and then get willy taveras with a late round pick and be in much better shape than if you just drafted reyes. you can get players with elite steals late in drafts but you wont be able to get players with elite power late in drafts. the only opporunity cost of taking braun instead of reyes is that he wont give you elite run production, but it will still be good. what do you guys think?

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For those of you who play Fantasy points style:

Pujols was the best hitter in my league last year and Reyes was second.

Pujols had 626pts last year

Reyes had 581pts last year

Just a 45pt difference! For my league 45pts just isn't enough of a difference to offset the positional differences.

Plus as someone has already said (MoustacheToes, I think) I'd rather have Reyes and Fielder/Morneau than Albert & Jeter/Tejada. The gap between Fielder/Morneau and Jeter/Tejada is gonna be larger than the Reyes & Pujols gap.

You'd have to take Fielder/Morneau with your 2nd/3rd pick, while Tejada/Jeter will still be there much later.

Though i am on the Reyes side, i would have him 2nd/3rd overall with Wright.

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i dont understand how Reyes has been a top 10 pick the past few seasons. it makes no sense to me. yes he does give you elite production in steals and runs, but he doesnt hit for an eye popping average, and has below average power. yes thats a fine fantasy player but it just makes no sense to me how hes been a 1st round pick. i recently argued with my friend you could take ryan braun with your 1st round pick and then get willy taveras with a late round pick and be in much better shape than if you just drafted reyes. you can get players with elite steals late in drafts but you wont be able to get players with elite power late in drafts. the only opporunity cost of taking braun instead of reyes is that he wont give you elite run production, but it will still be good. what do you guys think?

It's because you can fill one of the weakest positions and almost completely cover stolen bases while doing so. He is also a monster in runs and walks while not hurting you at all in HR's at all. Plus he's still young and more power could come.

Comparing him to Taveras is just not right. Reyes beats him in every category and more importantly is a SS not an OF. Drafting Reyes early instead of Braun gives you a lot more options later in the draft as well, since you already have one cat covered.

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i dont understand how Reyes has been a top 10 pick the past few seasons. it makes no sense to me. yes he does give you elite production in steals and runs, but he doesnt hit for an eye popping average, and has below average power. yes thats a fine fantasy player but it just makes no sense to me how hes been a 1st round pick. i recently argued with my friend you could take ryan braun with your 1st round pick and then get willy taveras with a late round pick and be in much better shape than if you just drafted reyes. you can get players with elite steals late in drafts but you wont be able to get players with elite power late in drafts. the only opporunity cost of taking braun instead of reyes is that he wont give you elite run production, but it will still be good. what do you guys think?

True, you can take a Willy Tavaras late in the draft and get some value steals, but he will make you suffer in other categories. The big deal with Reyes is that he gets you tons of steals and does NOT hurt any of your other categories. And, as GBPig points out, Reyes is a SS--a tough position to fill with a quality player.

This may not seem like a great argument, but what other player can you make these same arguments for? Crawford?

Also, don't lose sight of the difference between 50 and 80 steals. The potential for 80 steals is unreal.

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i dont understand how Reyes has been a top 10 pick the past few seasons. it makes no sense to me. yes he does give you elite production in steals and runs, but he doesnt hit for an eye popping average, and has below average power. yes thats a fine fantasy player but it just makes no sense to me how hes been a 1st round pick. i recently argued with my friend you could take ryan braun with your 1st round pick and then get willy taveras with a late round pick and be in much better shape than if you just drafted reyes. you can get players with elite steals late in drafts but you wont be able to get players with elite power late in drafts. the only opporunity cost of taking braun instead of reyes is that he wont give you elite run production, but it will still be good. what do you guys think?

Between 15-20 homers from a SS is not below average power. Taveras is fantasy junk. He's a one category player. In Roto formats, Reyes is the more valuable player but like I've said above, he comes with a higher level of risk because one leg injury saps his value.

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i dont understand how Reyes has been a top 10 pick the past few seasons. it makes no sense to me. yes he does give you elite production in steals and runs, but he doesnt hit for an eye popping average, and has below average power. yes thats a fine fantasy player but it just makes no sense to me how hes been a 1st round pick. i recently argued with my friend you could take ryan braun with your 1st round pick and then get willy taveras with a late round pick and be in much better shape than if you just drafted reyes. you can get players with elite steals late in drafts but you wont be able to get players with elite power late in drafts. the only opporunity cost of taking braun instead of reyes is that he wont give you elite run production, but it will still be good. what do you guys think?

SBs are more valuable than HRs, and Reyes probably has more HR + SB combined than any player in baseball. On top of that, he'll still help you in BA (around a .290 average, maybe a little lower, but don't forget that he's still young and has .300 potential). On top of that, he'll score 120+ runs.

On top of that, he's a damn SS.

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i dont understand how Reyes has been a top 10 pick the past few seasons. it makes no sense to me. yes he does give you elite production in steals and runs, but he doesnt hit for an eye popping average, and has below average power. yes thats a fine fantasy player but it just makes no sense to me how hes been a 1st round pick. i recently argued with my friend you could take ryan braun with your 1st round pick and then get willy taveras with a late round pick and be in much better shape than if you just drafted reyes. you can get players with elite steals late in drafts but you wont be able to get players with elite power late in drafts. the only opporunity cost of taking braun instead of reyes is that he wont give you elite run production, but it will still be good. what do you guys think?

I totally disagree.

The "elite steals" guys that you are talking about are usually of the 1-tool variety that KILL you in the other categories like Bourn, Taveras, Pierre. It is much easier finding power out there that at least comes with moderate average and won't kill you in other categories.

Reyes is one of the only huge stolen base threats that won't hurt you in other categories.

In any given year, Stolen bases carry almost twice as much value as HR's if you are just looking at those two categories (without factoring in the RBI/runs produced with a HR.) So, Reyes value in SB is so difficult to even measure.

There were 28 players last year that hit at least 30 HR's, not to mention all the elite power guys that just missed like Berkman and Soriano (several were on the wire or undrafted in standard leagues Delgado, Ludwick, Giambi, Huff, Cust, Jacobs.) There were only 16 guys that swipped over 30 SB's (every single one of them was drafted in my standard leagues last year just because of the speed, Rajai Davis was the only one that almost broke in at 29 that went undrafted.) HR's are and always will be more prevalent on the WW.

Also, we have already discussed the position scarcity debate. After you get by those first 3 SS, it becomes a total crapshoot.

IF you take Reyes in the first round, you have set yourself up very very well in the draft and have some huge advantages. That means that you don't have to reach for speed, or a SS for the rest of the draft. While your leaguemates are overpaying for the mediocre SS's, you can be grabbing underrated power bats like Brad Hawpe, Kevin Youkillis, Joey Votto, Jermaine Dye, etc. Last year in one of my drafts I grabbed Evan Longoria about 5 spots behind Carlos Gomez. I bet the other owner wished he had that pick back.

It's all about accumulating the numbers and power is there throughout and on the waiver more than speed is. Even the "cheap" speed guys come at a price, usually your avg. and RBI totals, or the sickening feeling that you have Jaun Pierre on your team.

Anyway, there is no way that Reyes is not a mid first rounder. The argument at hand is about Reyes vs. Pujols.

I know that Pujols will go first in all drafts and I too would likely prefer his consistency, but the numbers crunchers out there are all telling us that Reyes will likely have more value and given all the arguments that I have presented, I clearly cannot disagree.

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well lets do the math real quick using last years stats and adp's

If you drafted Reyes at 3 you would have gotten:

.297 avg 113 R 16 HR 68 RBI 56 SB

Now you could have gotten Ryan Garko at pick #183

.273 61 Runs 14 HR's 90 RBI's 0 Steals

Now if you took Pujols at 3

.357 100 R 37 HR 116 RBI 7 SB

Now if you coupled him with Taveras at pick # 167

.251 64 Runs 1 HR 26 RBI's 68 SB

Now that adds up (with the correct averages hand calculated) to

Reyes/Garko : .287 174 Runs 30 HR's 158 RBI's 56 SB's

Pujols/Taveras: .306 164 Runs 38 HR's 142 RBI's 75 SB's

Now keep in mind that Taveras is an OF while Reyes is a SS. I merely just used this as an example for comparison, obviously there's still 2359874 other factors to look at, but i will say that the differences are negligable, you really cant go wrong with either strategy. Keep in mind too that Garko was drafted about a round later then Willy T last year as well.

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A better example would have been putting Youkalis in there istead of Garko since Youk's ADP last year was 161.

So their accum. stats would be:

.303 avg. 204 Runs 45 HR's 183 RBI's 59 Sb's

Youk's emmergence (sp?) from the 160adp area to what he is now is a special case of course, but if you chose Reyes over Pujols, this is that alternative 1B you could have gotten in place of Pujols.

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You'd have to take Fielder/Morneau with your 2nd/3rd pick, while Tejada/Jeter will still be there much later.

Though i am on the Reyes side, i would have him 2nd/3rd overall with Wright.

You're right, I was just trying make my point using players from the 2nd half of their position's top 10. To me what round you get the player wasn't part of the discussion.

So how about this example using players that are much closer in ADP

Would you rather have Reyes & CoJack or Votto

or would you rather have Pujols & Theriot or Yunel

In my league there is about an 80pt difference between CoJack/Votto and Theriot/Yunel

That is almost twice the difference between Reyes & Pujols!

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Well, Taveras was also a special case. Don't forget that.

If anyone would have projected 68 SB's last year, they would have had their work station searched for contraband. That is twice the total of his normal projections and was likely far more surprising to most than Youkilis making a jump in production. Unfortunately Taveras also declined in other areas, which may have hurt in the long run.

Anyway, there are any number of combinations that we can come up with. There is more than one way to.....

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Well, Taveras was also a special case. Don't forget that.

If anyone would have projected 68 SB's last year, they would have had their work station searched for contraband. That is twice the total of his normal projections and was likely far more surprising to most than Youkilis making a jump in production. Unfortunately Taveras also declined in other areas, which may have hurt in the long run.

Anyway, there are any number of combinations that we can come up with. There is more than one way to.....

Well honestly, i had Taveras pegged for 50 SB's last year, but then again, i also had him putting up at least a .280 avg. lol

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