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My thinking about veteran posters is this: if they leave, good for them.

There is more than just a majority of knowledgeable posts in this forum, there is an overwhelming majority. I would have to believe that if veteran posters choose to become inactive, it's because they have a lack of free time. I do not want to chalk it up to "useless posts" because this is the most comprehensive of any fantasy sports forums I've been on.

I will say, I'm a young 22 year old guy heading off to law school in the fall. I think the height of my posting days will be during this summer and that's it. When I start posting less, let me assure you, it won't be because of a perceived defect in the posts or a lack of disinterest, it'll simply be because I need to commit my time to something else.

I think that's what you see a lot of anywhere you go. I was big into fantasy baseball, went to college, and was pretty much out of it for 2 years. Sometimes more important things just come up.

Good point, and I'm sure that's the reason for a lot of people going inactive. I went inactive for the past couple months to focus on finishing school and then getting my full-time job.

I think the people Czar was referring to were close friends of his on these boards, that, for a long while, were very active. Many of them were already grown up with a stable job and income, so not much was going to change their schedule. I'm also sure they told him exactly what he echoed in the thread.

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I love that this thread turned to arguing!

All in all, I think balance is in order. And I believe, like others have said, if you don't like a post, don't respond. There are times that I get into an intellectual discussion about a player (like Nelson Cruz with Czar, he's winning....so far), and there are other times I come in and throw down one-liners. Depends on my mood. Overall, the board is great. Go to CBS and listen to people spew crap about religion, race, and politics with no regard. This board is clearly superior. And while I sometimes get annoyed my mindless posts, I also don't need every post to reference BABIP and LD%. I like that it's all there. And if people spew stupid comments and no one responds, they'll most likely go away. And if some people feel like they're "above" this board because every post isn't a statistical breakdown of a player, than I think they can go away too. It's all about balance, my friends.

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Good point, and I'm sure that's the reason for a lot of people going inactive. I went inactive for the past couple months to focus on finishing school and then getting my full-time job.

I think the people Czar was referring to were close friends of his on these boards, that, for a long while, were very active. Many of them were already grown up with a stable job and income, so not much was going to change their schedule. I'm also sure they told him exactly what he echoed in the thread.

Exactly.

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I love that this thread turned to arguing!

All in all, I think balance is in order. And I believe, like others have said, if you don't like a post, don't respond. There are times that I get into an intellectual discussion about a player (like Nelson Cruz with Czar, he's winning....so far), and there are other times I come in and throw down one-liners. Depends on my mood. Overall, the board is great. Go to CBS and listen to people spew crap about religion, race, and politics with no regard. This board is clearly superior. And while I sometimes get annoyed my mindless posts, I also don't need every post to reference BABIP and LD%. I like that it's all there. And if people spew stupid comments and no one responds, they'll most likely go away. And if some people feel like they're "above" this board because every post isn't a statistical breakdown of a player, than I think they can go away too. It's all about balance, my friends.

Exactly, but it was a GOOD discussion and I welcome that.

The McGowen thread is a prime example though. What happens when a player goes bad? Should I get flamed for calling him to everyone's attention? I didn't post much in that thread if at all, but I will say that he is/was an elite arm and it was a damn shame the Jays hid the injury information from all of us. His talent level was much higher than the eventual outcome, but we shouldn't flame guys for touting a quality arm like that.

Nelson Cruz may or may not work out, but I'm hoping that I don't get destroyed over it. Nothing like: "Good call Czar, you f'd up my team." I never told anyone to get him, I touted him, there is a difference.

Anyway, I gotta run for today. Keep the good discussion going. Don't get the thread closed please.

Thanks to ALL that have responded.

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This thread could use a bump due to the overwhelming amount of negative posts I have read lately...Is it that hard to focus on the positive aspects of a player as opposed to coming out of the woodwork every time a player goes 0-4???

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This thread could use a bump due to the overwhelming amount of negative posts I have read lately...Is it that hard to focus on the positive aspects of a player as opposed to coming out of the woodwork every time a player goes 0-4???

I'd actually have to agree. Maybe it's just because it's the thing to do these days, but Kemp is getting abused.

It's a marathon. Clearly no one will agree on where he should bat. Let's all get along.

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I just reread this thread from front to back and it is loaded with good insights. I sometimes get put off by a lot of negativity and I will admit that it does probably reduce my post count because when a thread goes volatile I usually just leave it alone. I will also say that I miss a lot of the oldtimers who really got into analysis of players (those who know me probably won't be surprised by that LOL) ... for whatever reason it seems many of them have drifted away.

Good OP Czar ... hopefully people will try to keep this more focused on player evaluation with good solid observations rather than 1 and 2 word jabs. I know I would like to see more extensive discussions.

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I just reread this thread from front to back and it is loaded with good insights. I sometimes get put off by a lot of negativity and I will admit that it does probably reduce my post count because when a thread goes volatile I usually just leave it alone. I will also say that I miss a lot of the oldtimers who really got into analysis of players (those who know me probably won't be surprised by that LOL) ... for whatever reason it seems many of them have drifted away.

Good OP Czar ... hopefully people will try to keep this more focused on player evaluation with good solid observations rather than 1 and 2 word jabs. I know I would like to see more extensive discussions.

I agree with that 100%. I was a lot more active last year (oh the difference that one year will make) and I now find myself ignoring debates because I know that it will end up spiraling into some angry attack and my opinion will be considered wrong (because these days it would seem that there is such a thing as a "wrong" opinion...). Needless to say, the quality of my posts has plummeted and when I realize what I'm putting out there to you guys, it's pointless or vague. I don't consider myself to be a pointless or vague individual.

We need to learn to stick to the topic and steer away from personal attacks. I sent a PM to one of our fellow Rotoworldians the other day just mentioning that the way his post was written detracted from the overall quality of the debate. I found it important to point out to him because he IS a quality poster and he clearly knows his stuff.

What I'm trying to say here is that there are a lot of us on here who write in a way that may come off as aggressive or condescending and we really need to put any personal stuff in check. If Martin Luther King gave his "I have a dream" speech but started it by saying "Hey white people, you think you're so hot?!", it would take the attention away from the ultimate message and would put strain on the negativity. It just leaves a bad taste in the mouth and starts everything off on the wrong foot. You always forget the driver who let you in but you never forget the driver who cut you off (if that analogy makes sense).

Remember, I may not be perfect but I'm nearly certain that you aren't either. Deal with it and let's play ball!

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OK guys, before this goes any further, let's be very clear on 1 point - the Code of Conduct does not allow *any* personal attacks - that is what *every* poster agrees to. It is the basis on how RW Forums creates an open and welcoming atmosphere for *ALL* members who wish to speak & discuss fantasy sports.

Forum posting does not invoke the right to free speech, if it involves personal attacks, or anything else that is against the Forum Rules/CoC. That is non-negotiable. It is the basis that separates this Forum from the flamefests, trolling and chaos on other sites that have been referenced by others. All members who agree to be members also do so with the understanding that the CoC and Board Rules will be governed - and this part is not up for discussion. There are many parts that are - and thus the thread here.

Taking off the Mod hat, since I'm here, I would like to thank those who have chosen to post constructively and thoughtfully on this very subject. I would also like to thank Czar for bringing this topic up.

I think the issue of negativity can be summed by 3 insightful posts below:

I agree that we can clean it up a bit. We gotta remember that it's okay to disagree though. If everyone agreed on everything, there'd be no reason to discuss and if the board gets too "cushy" then we start getting "group think" forums rather than helping anyone. The big thing for me is to make a constructive argument rather than an argument that lacks basis. Not every post should be a book, but at least intelligent.

Peace be the journey fellas. I'm not sure what White Sox means as an opinion either, but I think the inference is obvious. It means he thinks the White Sox sucks. How that applies to previous posts I don't know, but its an opinion non-the-less and should be taken as such. Some may not agree with the post, or how it was stated, but c'est la vie. The person who posted that may be saying the same thing about what we think are amazing, insightful posts.

We play this game because we are emotionally involved. If we didn't love it, we wouldn't play. But we need to control our emotions, and understand that we are playing a game within a game, and not take things personally when people disagree with you. One of the main problems that I continuously see is that when two posters disagree, they feel that they must win the arguement and convince the other poster to see things there way. It rarely if ever works that way, and we need be ok with the fact that not everyone is going to agree with us.

The whole point of this thread is that we need to stop arguing and start debating. We worry too much about semantics sometimes.

I agree with that 100%. I was a lot more active last year (oh the difference that one year will make) and I now find myself ignoring debates because I know that it will end up spiraling into some angry attack and my opinion will be considered wrong (because these days it would seem that there is such a thing as a "wrong" opinion...). Needless to say, the quality of my posts has plummeted and when I realize what I'm putting out there to you guys, it's pointless or vague. I don't consider myself to be a pointless or vague individual.

We need to learn to stick to the topic and steer away from personal attacks. I sent a PM to one of our fellow Rotoworldians the other day just mentioning that the way his post was written detracted from the overall quality of the debate. I found it important to point out to him because he IS a quality poster and he clearly knows his stuff.

What I'm trying to say here is that there are a lot of us on here who write in a way that may come off as aggressive or condescending and we really need to put any personal stuff in check. If Martin Luther King gave his "I have a dream" speech but started it by saying "Hey white people, you think you're so hot?!", it would take the attention away from the ultimate message and would put strain on the negativity. It just leaves a bad taste in the mouth and starts everything off on the wrong foot. You always forget the driver who let you in but you never forget the driver who cut you off (if that analogy makes sense).

Remember, I may not be perfect but I'm nearly certain that you aren't either. Deal with it and let's play ball!

1. We should not confuse disagreement with negativity. Too many posters who offer a dissenting view are labelled as being negative and told to leave threads - and that's not only unfortunate, that's also not permissable under the CoC. Disagreement, when done in a civil and respectful manner, with both sides listenting, well it's how the community grows. 3 times 2nd is dead on about groupthink, a point acknowledged by Czar. Conversely, we have posters who do nothing but point out their side, and seem unwilling to engage in actual dialogue, even when given an invitation by others - and that does little to add to any conversation.

2. Just because posters disagree doesn't mean that there is entirely a right & wrong side - we often argue about semantics. But, as WCMets alluded to, we see an increasing trend towards people who have to argue, even bringing up the *same* arguments over & over. In the end, neither side *has* to agree - there's always the choice to agree to disagree. But, at the same time, we often fail to acknowledge there is validity to both sides - and that would go a long way to more productive conversations.

3. In the end, there will be posters who offer little but venting/frustration/anger in some of their posts. That's understandable. But if they fail to engage in a serious conversation when offered the chance, well what happens? Under the CoC and Board Rules, as long as the posters are civil & respectful, and abide by the CoC, as mentioned above, well, there's no need to engage further. And there's certainly *no justification* for escalating - every poster has the option to take the high road, or even in the most extreme cases, put posters on "ignore". It's not ideal, as in the end, conversation won't happen if people just ignored each other. It's why point #2 is so important, as the point by bob stephen - before looking to the other side's faults, make sure *you're* doing your part to ensure a productive conversation - in the end, it's the only thing you can control.

Again, thanks all to those for the constructive comments.

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Two problems stand out to me in these forums. Both are being talked about here, but I think it's worth clarifying how they interact.

1. Posts without content. (I say this knowing that I've fallen afoul of Markdash's BABIP pet peeve recently.) If the positive to negative ratio isn't 50/50 in contentless posts, it's probably close. Posting "ZOBRIST" or "what a beast" is just as vapid as posting "another K" or "this guy sucks". These posts are annoying and they make the superthreads a pain in the a** to read, unless you really, really want to know what the emotional reaction of the 14-25 demo is to a player at any given time.

2. Negativity. Almost always combined with #1. I think this is especially annoying because we tend to get emotionally invested in our players. If you drafted Chris Davis in the 6th round, checking his thread moments after he gets rung up and finding strangers on the interenet gleefully chattering about how much he sucks adds insult to injury.

I don't know if there's really a good solution. I tend to scan for longer posts, ignore certain posters, and avoid the superthreads when a player is blowing up or slumping especially badly. YMMV.

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Two problems stand out to me in these forums. Both are being talked about here, but I think it's worth clarifying how they interact.

1. Posts without content. (I say this knowing that I've fallen afoul of Markdash's BABIP pet peeve recently.) If the positive to negative ratio isn't 50/50 in contentless posts, it's probably close. Posting "ZOBRIST" or "what a beast" is just as vapid as posting "another K" or "this guy sucks". These posts are annoying and they make the superthreads a pain in the a** to read, unless you really, really want to know what the emotional reaction of the 14-25 demo is to a player at any given time.

2. Negativity. Almost always combined with #1. I think this is especially annoying because we tend to get emotionally invested in our players. If you drafted Chris Davis in the 6th round, checking his thread moments after he gets rung up and finding strangers on the interenet gleefully chattering about how much he sucks adds insult to injury.

I don't know if there's really a good solution. I tend to scan for longer posts, ignore certain posters, and avoid the superthreads when a player is blowing up or slumping especially badly. YMMV.

I agree with most of this post...especially the part in bold. Often times when a player is really struggling (especially pitchers) is when you hope to get some decent insight from their player thread.

One of the great things about this board is that you are guaranteed to have at least a couple of posters watching a game live and they can provide a timely firsthand account of what really happened which you can't get from a box score or stattracker. If one of my starters is getting bombed and I'm not able to watch it, I appreciate knowing whether or not he was locating his pitches, velocity was down, defense not helping him out, etc. It does get a bit frustrating when you have to browse through a bunch of "Pitcher X sucks" posts to obtain real insight. I think the Ricky Nolasco thread this year was a great example of this. Early on, it was a very good back and forth on what was really going on with him. As his struggles persisted the thread went way downhill. As a positive note however, the good analysis in that thread probably played a role in my decision to hang onto him after he got sent down and that patience is paying dividends now.

One observation I had today is that in years past it seemed like we used to have a lot more Game Threads going for high interest matchups or game threads that would open up in the middle of games. I liked these threads because it kind of consolidated the excited/disgruntled posts that were spur of the moment reactions and didn't really offer much analysis. It seemed like we would then get more insightful analysis written up in the Player Threads and less of the other stuff.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by sdbolt85
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One of the more problematic things you face in negative threads, or posts that don't have much substance (so and so sucks or another walk blech) is the inability to determine whether the featured player actually sucks, or were there things which suggest better things are to come ... in some cases, VERY good things are to come.

I guess this is the flipside of the negative post coin ... In my posts I usually try very hard to go beyond the boxscore info. I try to look for the signs that tip off future success ... or suggest that tonight's great stats are unlikely to last.

To me its just as disheartening to see a long list of posts crowing about the great line for a player who really has extremely limited upside. Those posts can be even more devastating to the newer owners who rush to grab that guy, invariably dropping someone who may be slumping but will be an excellent producer over the course of the year, only to eat horrible stats until they get fed up and dump that flavor of the week flop.

The point is, overly negative or falsely positive can be equally frustrating. Please try to make quality posts.

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One of the more problematic things you face in negative threads, or posts that don't have much substance (so and so sucks or another walk blech) is the inability to determine whether the featured player actually sucks, or were there things which suggest better things are to come ... in some cases, VERY good things are to come.

I guess this is the flipside of the negative post coin ... In my posts I usually try very hard to go beyond the boxscore info. I try to look for the signs that tip off future success ... or suggest that tonight's great stats are unlikely to last.

To me its just as disheartening to see a long list of posts crowing about the great line for a player who really has extremely limited upside. Those posts can be even more devastating to the newer owners who rush to grab that guy, invariably dropping someone who may be slumping but will be an excellent producer over the course of the year, only to eat horrible stats until they get fed up and dump that flavor of the week flop.

The point is, overly negative or falsely positive can be equally frustrating. Please try to make quality posts.

Agreed.

Just a couple of months ago it used to be that you could log on and if you saw a player's post at the top it meant a good thing. Now you don't.

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To be honest, I think a lot of the contentless posts are done to increase post counts. I wish there was a way where people would only get credit for posts that added something substantive to the dialogue.

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To be honest, I think a lot of the contentless posts are done to increase post counts. I wish there was a way where people would only get credit for posts that added something substantive to the dialogue.

This can be taken care of by disabling post counts...

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To be honest, I think a lot of the contentless posts are done to increase post counts. I wish there was a way where people would only get credit for posts that added something substantive to the dialogue.

Of course I could be wrong, but I can't imagine that's true. Do people really care about their post count? It's quality, not quantity. I know some guys with a low count that I can rely on for valuable information, and there's a couple guys that have very high counts that offer very little.

Are the "Davis K'd again, he sucks" posts annoying? Sure. Do all the "ZORILLA!" posts have no value? Yes. But I think the expectation that this will just be a board where people discuss BABIP and LD% is just not realistic. Some come here for just information. But some come here for enterntainment. It's supposed to be fun. Frankly, I do both. And I think the board can be both. And I think that's where the board is at it's best.

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Some more excellent & thoughtful discussion, thank you all.

I agree with most of this post...especially the part in bold. Often times when a player is really struggling (especially pitchers) is when you hope to get some decent insight from their player thread.

One of the great things about this board is that you are guaranteed to have at least a couple of posters watching a game live and they can provide a timely firsthand account of what really happened which you can't get from a box score or stattracker. If one of my starters is getting bombed and I'm not able to watch it, I appreciate knowing whether or not he was locating his pitches, velocity was down, defense not helping him out, etc. It does get a bit frustrating when you have to browse through a bunch of "Pitcher X sucks" posts to obtain real insight. I think the Ricky Nolasco thread this year was a great example of this. Early on, it was a very good back and forth on what was really going on with him. As his struggles persisted the thread went way downhill. As a positive note however, the good analysis in that thread probably played a role in my decision to hang onto him after he got sent down and that patience is paying dividends now.

One observation I had today is that in years past it seemed like we used to have a lot more Game Threads going for high interest matchups or game threads that would open up in the middle of games. I liked these threads because it kind of consolidated the excited/disgruntled posts that were spur of the moment reactions and didn't really offer much analysis. It seemed like we would then get more insightful analysis written up in the Player Threads and less of the other stuff.

Just my 2 cents.

Just a note - the Gameday threads do seem to work well, especially for the high-publicity matchups for the "in" prospects, or guys coming off injury (Nolasco, Smoltz, etc.). I think it applies best to pitchers - really, hitters only get 4-5 PA's in most games, so it's not the same as 5-9 IP for a pitcher. And, to be clear, these can be started for any matchup. If we had Gameday threads for each game, however, it would defeat the purpose - but yeah, it's worked very well. Of course, it requires members to actually start & contribute updates in those GD threads to make it worthwhile, too - but when they do, it provides a great outlet to allow owners to celebrate/commiserate, and then get the player threads back to more on-topic and enduring discussion (not just the events of that single day).

Of course I could be wrong, but I can't imagine that's true. Do people really care about their post count? It's quality, not quantity. I know some guys with a low count that I can rely on for valuable information, and there's a couple guys that have very high counts that offer very little.

Are the "Davis K'd again, he sucks" posts annoying? Sure. Do all the "ZORILLA!" posts have no value? Yes. But I think the expectation that this will just be a board where people discuss BABIP and LD% is just not realistic. Some come here for just information. But some come here for enterntainment. It's supposed to be fun. Frankly, I do both. And I think the board can be both. And I think that's where the board is at it's best.

As in any group, I believe that 99 percent of the membership don't really post for numbers. That doesn't mean *everyone* doesn't. I'm sure there are members who are influenced by the desire to increase post count, but really, most of us could care less (one important exception might be the # required to put up avatars, LOL). And frankly, if a poster simply posts solely just to beef up their numbers, frankly the community will probably recognize the value that these posts provide.

Most of the community would agree that they are willing to trust/listen to the opinion of someone they can get a read on - familiarity does matter, that's human nature. But, that doesn't mean that post count gives more credibility and/or respect - we've seen very insightful posts from people who just joined the Forums, and we've also seen those who've been around who must have had a brain cramp that day. Most members don't simply judge members by the # posts made, but rather by the content in them.

Finally, a point 2balls has touched on which deserves repeating - posting is done for different reasons for different posters. Sometimes it's to learn more, and to seek out new information. Other times, it's to celebrate, or as is the case, to commiserate. And that's OK - as long as the two aren't in competition. The increasing popularity of FBB and RW Forums means that we have a much larger population - and that means more people with different goals. Some of the conflicts arise when members with different goals collide - and there, it's important to recognize the differences. At the same time, any time members are offered the chance to engage, and choose not to, well it's an opportunity lost. sdbolt's example of Nolasco is where the two types of posts *can indeed mix*. I applaud glascock9 for having a civil and respectful disagreeement with others on Nolasco's value - and he had the maturity to come back both when Nolasco struggled and when Nolasco showed signs of recovery. *THAT* is the type of discussion in which the community benefits - not the "I'm right/You're completely wrong" arguments which many discussions seem to take on tone-wise, which many have commented on here already.

It doesn't mean that in-depth discussion has to happen *all* the time. I recall an occasion where a poster said "Player X sucks", and another poster simply said "Really? He's actually been OK...<and then gave some info>" - and to which the other poster said, "Just venting, it's just frustrating to own a guy like this". To me, *that* wasn't in-depth, but it was far more productive than a hit-and-run post with a refusal to engage, even when asked. And no, the CoC doesn't require it - but since this is a thread on how the Forums can be better for everyone, the original point brought up by Czar & echoed by others ought to be recognized. Just because posters have different goals doesn't mean dialogue can't still take place - and I believe that's the original point Czar & many others have touched on.

Excellent discussion, everyone.

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From a purely statistical point of view....

I work in market research as an analyst, I look at numbers all day.

The thing about numbers is.....they don't *mean* anything on their own.

Numbers need to be anaylzed and interpreted....by people.

Different people sometimes have different interpretations of the same data, simple as that.

Sure, there are some stats no one will quibble over, but plenty of other "advanced" baseball metrics (on which I am not an expert) have their champions and detracters, it doesn't mean one player "sucks" or "I'm right and you're wrong"

It means different people trust different stats or use other accumulated experience to make their own decisions.

We should be concentrating on helping each other win (unless your league mates are posting here) or at least providing quality information to keep us all as informed as possible, along with spirited debate over, say, best FA pickup or most annoying owners in your league...

My 2.5 cents.

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