Jump to content
NBC Sports Edge Forums

The Pittsburgh Pirates


Br0kenB

Recommended Posts

Hogwash. It's player development a bad moves like the McClouth deal.

They had some young pieces to build around at the MLB level like McClouth, Doumit, and Andy LaRoche. Their minors were quite stacked McCutchen, Tabata and Alvarez.

Instead of moving Sanchez and Wilson to IF starved teams like Boston or Tampa - they trade their best player for package of marshmallow peeps.

LOL LOL marshmallow PEEPS!!!! HAHAHAH

Link to post
Share on other sites
Hogwash. It's player development a bad moves like the McClouth deal.

They had some young pieces to build around at the MLB level like McClouth, Doumit, and Andy LaRoche. Their minors were quite stacked McCutchen, Tabata and Alvarez.

Instead of moving Sanchez and Wilson to IF starved teams like Boston or Tampa - they trade their best player for package of marshmallow peeps.

Notice, though, that you did not name any pitchers among PIT's young pieces, and that Andy LaRoche and Tabata were received in deals that dealt away popular OF's who were performing well.

Here are some of PIT's recent deals:

RHP Charlie Morton, LHP Jeff Locke and OF Gorkys Hernandez for OF Nate McLouth

C Jason Jaramillo for C Ronny Paulino

OF Delwyn Young for 2 PTBNL

C Robinson Diaz for 3B Jose Batista

3B Andy Laroche, RHP Bryan Morris, RHP Craig Hansen and OF Brandon Moss for OF Jason Bay

OF Jose Tabata, RHP Ross Ohlendorf, RHP Danial McCutchen and RHP Jeff Karstons for OF Xavier Nady and LHP Damaso Marte

That seems like pretty good return on Bay, Nady, McLouth, two backups, two PTBNL and Marte. Seven of those players received are pitchers, too. For a team looking to compete in 2011+, that's not bad return at all. Of course not all of those players are going to pan out, but Diaz/Jaramillo has beeen servicable at C with Doumit out, and LaRoche is breaking out. Considering PIT's lack of farm pitching depth, I'd say they've made out pretty well.

Neal Huntington seems like he knows what he's doing in building for the future. Of course this deal isn't going to be liked by Pirates fans, but c'mon, what wold make them happy without ruining the team for later or spending money they don't have?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ya I was just admiring the Pittsburgh team when they were playing the mets the other night. With the guys they have, if they just signed one bat (Dunn, but that would make them lefty heavy) and 1 or 2 above average pitchers they would have had a competitive team imo. A lineup like this:

Morgan,

Sanchez

McLouth

Signed power hitter (Bay would have looked nice here)

Ad. LaRoche

An. Laroche

Doumit (When he's healthy)

Wilson

IMO that would be a pretty nice lineup, then throw a couple of serviceable starters in there (Derek Lowe, not sure who else was available in the off-season) and they have what looks like a competitive lineup.

Just doesn't make any sense... I understand they are small market, but spending 30-50 mil over 2 seasons for a competitive team that the fans would love to watch I think is as close as they are going to come to being good unless they have a miracle run where young talent all comes together.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Ya I was just admiring the Pittsburgh team when they were playing the mets the other night. With the guys they have, if they just signed one bat (Dunn, but that would make them lefty heavy) and 1 or 2 above average pitchers they would have had a competitive team imo. A lineup like this:

Morgan,

Sanchez

McLouth

Signed power hitter (Bay would have looked nice here)

Ad. LaRoche

An. Laroche

Doumit (When he's healthy)

Wilson

IMO that would be a pretty nice lineup, then throw a couple of serviceable starters in there (Derek Lowe, not sure who else was available in the off-season) and they have what looks like a competitive lineup.

Just doesn't make any sense... I understand they are small market, but spending 30-50 mil over 2 seasons for a competitive team that the fans would love to watch I think is as close as they are going to come to being good unless they have a miracle run where young talent all comes together.

That's a lot of signings for the Pirates, considering they also gave multi-year deals to Doumit, Maholm, and McLouth in the offseason. Dunn at 2/20 or Lowe at 4/60 would have been incredibly impractacle for the Pirates, they're at $47M for this year. PIT is trying to get younger, trying to realize they probably won't compete with their young players and pitching staff.

I've also seen some comment on how teams like Tampa Bay and the Orioles can do well on such a small budget, and that's through years of farm growth and development. If the Pirates can do in 2012 what Baltimore should do in 2011 and Tampa Bay did in 2008, which is have thier developed prospects come up en masse and contribute, it's a good thing for the franchise.

Link to post
Share on other sites
In 2002, The Pirates had the first overall pick and sellected Brian Bullington. He never made it to the majors and just recently retired due to arm problems. Here's a look at some of the other first round picks sellected after Bullington:(2) BJ Upton, (6) Zack Greinke, (7) Prince Fielder, (11) Jeremy Hermida, (12) Joe Saunders, (15) Scott Kazmir, (16) Nick Swisher, (17) Cole Hammels, (19) James Loney, (20) Denard Span, (22) Jeremy Guthrie, (23) Jeff Francoeur, (24) Joe Blanton and (25) Matt Cain.

It's really sad how poorly the organization is run.

Actually Bullington did make it to the majors. There have only ever been two number one overall picks that never made it to the majors so far(I imagine Matt Bush will be the third shortly). Brien Taylor being one of them, the other is escaping me at the moment and I'm too lazy to look it up.

But Bullington actually pitched an 1.1 innings for the Pirates in 2005 and then made 3 starts for them in 2007. Also made some appearances last year after being picked up by the Indians.

Granted picking him was a big mistake, and he was only picked because of signing reasons. They even admitted they he only projected to be a number three or four at the time they drafted him. You look at their first round picks over the past decade or so and none of them have amounted to anything and most of the pitchers they have drafted have had to have Tommy John.

The McClouth trade isn't that bad. It allows them to play McCutheon everyday, plus gives them some solid prospects. Morton will be in their rotation soon.

But there's always hope they can turn it around if they actually draft the best talent in the draft.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They have the worst owner in baseball, not only is he cheap but he's nuts lol. He banned actor Michael Keaton because he during an in game interview mentioned how the team needs more payroll and it's a joke what the current owner invests into the team so he got booted for life. Fans yell Go Steelers during games and the owner flips out and will have the PA announcer ask fans not too. Dude is nuttier then fruit cake. B)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Reminds me of Matt Millen having henchmen run around the stadium chasing a fan who was carrying a "FIRE MILLEN" sign.

Maybe Millen can take over the Pirates now, since he's a free agent.

Link to post
Share on other sites

First post on the forum, been lurking a while though.

With regard to Pitt being a small market. In fact, it is, but it is growing. HOWEVER, this is a sports city through and through. Just look at the Steelers and Pens games. Good luck getting decent seats. This city LOVES a winner and would back the Pirates if the management spent money on them, i have no doubt about it.

Granted, some of the recent moves were good for the future, but I disagree that moving McClouth was a good idea. His perceived value on the market may have been higher than it should have been, but he's pretty much a 5 tool player and is still maturing. Moving Wilson or LaRoche would have made SOOOOO much more sense.

I'm not a Pirate fan per se (I'm a HUGE Phillies fan all my life) but I live in PA and my family is split right down the middle of Pirates/Phillies fans. There is definitely no lack of passion by the Pirates fans.

The current roster is STILL something that is worthy of building around if Andy LaRoche, Doumit, and McCuth continue to develop and improve. Duke finally looks like a solid front line arm. But one imporant thing that this team lacks is veteran leadership. Adam LaRoche does NOT fit that bill. Look at the good teams in the league and they each have 1 or 2 otherwise washed up vets that are leaders in the clubhouse. That is far more imporatant than most realize.

Poor management....FACT. And I feel bad for the city and it's fans. This team can fill the seats if they have even a chance at the playoffs.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The McClouth trade isn't that bad. It allows them to play McCutheon everyday, plus gives them some solid prospects. Morton will be in their rotation soon.

The Pirates could have moved McLouth to RF and brought in McCutchen to play CF.

They got bubkas in return. None of the players they got for McLouth will amount to anything more than mediocre talent. just like the players they got last year for Bay and Nady.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The Pirates could have moved McLouth to RF and brought in McCutchen to play CF.

They got bubkas in return. None of the players they got for McLouth will amount to anything more than mediocre talent. just like the players they got last year for Bay and Nady.

I'm aware that originally that was the plan move Nate to right and bring up Andrew...but that's been the plan for over a year. Clearly they felt they had to make a trade. Nate was for better or worse the face of their franchise. But lets face it, he had a career year last year. Nate is a solid player, but he's not a star.

I agree that they got the short end of it with the Bay deal. You'd think they would have gotten more than Andy LaRoche.

But to say they got bubkas for McClouth is way too early. Hernandez has the potential to be a good centerfield with further development, Morton should be in their rotation right now, and Locke has number two potential. Will these guys reach their potential, maybe not, but too early to write them off.

And as far as trading Nady, the guy wasn't that good...so you can pretty much call it a push on what you got for him. Once again, too early to write off Tabata from that anyway. He's been a highly regarded prospect for a few years now. Though he may actually be 30 years old, and dates people that kidnaps babies.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bottom line is they traded a player who is at his peak right now and only going down. He's not going to get any better than last year. Gorkys and Morton are both solid, but far from blue chip, prospects. Locke has #3 upside but he's a long way away. The number of prospects who have #3 upside in A ball is about 20 times the number who actually become a ML #3.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I believe that Nady and McLouth (not Bay) had a perceived value that was much higher than their actual value -- in McLouth's case it's because he was the best player on his team. I have no problem with them selling at that point.

The problem that I have is that they didn't get nearly enough for McLouth. Even if all three of these prospects pan out, they could have received more in return.

That's exactly it. If you're going to trade away your stars, at least get top level prospects in return. Such stupidity can't be attributed to merely being a small market.

Link to post
Share on other sites

i just dont get how some of these owners of pro sports teams dont try to win and improve their teams. i think if you cant afford your top players once they become free agents then you shouldnt be the owner. sell the team to someone else who is willing to spend the money and build a contender.

Link to post
Share on other sites
i just dont get how some of these owners of pro sports teams dont try to win and improve their teams. i think if you cant afford your top players once they become free agents then you shouldnt be the owner. sell the team to someone else who is willing to spend the money and build a contender.

Theres more to it than that.....owners aren't simply just pull the money out of their own pockets to bring in a FA. Is there enough revenue being generated where the owner doesn't have to do that? My guess, based on the empty stands, is probably not?

Although it could certainly be cyclical where the fans haven't shown up because the team has been bad for so long. Like people have said, no winning seasons since 1992......thats a long time. I think though if the team showed progress, fans would come out. Pittsburgh is a good sports town.

Link to post
Share on other sites

For all those saying that the Pirates should have gotten more for their "stars," who would you recommend they go after? Anyone naming Hanson, Schafer, or Heyward as possible targets doesn't understand the market. Tabata, LaRoche, and Hernandez are all solid prospects on the offensive side of the ball, but they also play at positions the Pirates are deep. Look at the pitching they've received in the deals, and you'll see that that's actually a good amount of their pitching depth now.

The CC/LaPorta deal is the exception, not the rule. CC is a season changer, and MIL had to pay a lot for him. Casey Blake for Meloan and Santana was a great trade for CLE, but that's because LAD management loves to overpay for veterans. Take a look at the proposed Jake Peavy deal to see what guys of his calibur can go for...

Link to post
Share on other sites
The Pirates could have moved McLouth to RF and brought in McCutchen to play CF.

They got bubkas in return. None of the players they got for McLouth will amount to anything more than mediocre talent. just like the players they got last year for Bay and Nady.

You have no way of knowing what they got in return--Morton is fairly projectable at this point, but Locke and Hernandez have several years of development and projection left. Who knows how they'll turn out?

Having said that, GM Neal Huntinton seems to have a proclivity for speedy, defensive-oriented outfielders, as he seems to be collecting them. Going after Freeman instead of Gorkys Hernandez would've been preferrable.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Freeman would've been really nice, but I think it also wouldn't have been such an easy deal for the Braves to make. Whereas the Braves have great OF prospects, I'm not too keen on their other CI prospects.

PIT also has good depth in CI and OF, so perhaps it was just personal preference between the two. Maybe NH also likes those speed/glove OF's in case they develop their power.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think fangraphs said it fairly accurately when they said that McLouth was a very good player but he wasn't a great player. Nate McLouth may look like a superstar in comparison to the other players on the Pirates and Braves, but McLouth isn't a superstar talent and he isn't going to warrant a huge minors boosting haul.

I think the Pirates probably should have kept jason bay last year looking at what he's continued to do and what they've got back in return, but for the most part I think Huntington has been doing what he's supposed to be doing in improving the system with better drafting and international signings and I wouldn't be surprised if the the Pirates did something in the next five years or so.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...