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Should drafting a K and DEF be required?


DrRazvi

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Green, I know that you want unknown players on your bench, so I guess it really doesn't matter. Given your philosophy, I suppose you can draft a kicker whenever you want. But as I said before, that strategy is far from the norm.

This is all I'm saying. That it's not so easy to say it's always wrong, and in certain, perhaps uncommon, circumstances it's perfectly okay.

That and despite there being a larger pool a round earlier, if it's not a pool of players you want it doesn't really matter. If you want some of those players (which you obviously do) then of course you draft them, but if you're like me and have no interest in them then it really does not matter at all if and when they get drafted. I'm just saying don't be a slave to predefined rankings, make your own and if yours don't match up with the standard ones - then take advantage.

Alright, but the conversation isn't really focusing on your particular strategy. We're discussing general draft strategy. Although it may work for you, and you're free to draft however you like, most owners don't target a bench comprised entirely of players whom their leaguemates have never heard of.

As far as being a slave to projections, I made it a point to mention over and over that these projections are often wrong and even pointed out that owners should do their own detailed research. However, do you think that there is no reason why one player is ranked 40 slots higher than another? Are the experts who work full time year round to formulate these rankings essentially guessing? They are guidelines based on educated analysis. Sometimes the way I draft defies the projections, but we just can't

totally disregard the rankings.

Either way, if I have one bench slot remaining, and the guy I have my heart set on is the 40th best player on the board according to projections, I'd still take him with my next selection and wait on a kicker. Unless every other owner in your league is a casual fantasy player, you never know who else may have intentions on landing that same deep sleeper that you do. There are times when I target relatively unknown deep-sleeper types but there has never been a time when I said "I'm sure that nobody else in my league knows who this guy is, so I'll just go ahead and take a kicker before him".

If nobody in your league had ever even heard of Alfred Morris, then shame on them. Unless it were an early draft, in that case I applaud your prognosticating abilities to have your heart set on a 3rd string rookie 6th rounder before there was any speculation that he may get snaps.

Why did you want Morris in the first place? Unless you attended Skins training camp or know someone in the organization, I'm guessing you read or saw something to indicate that he may have value. You may have had to do research to see this but even in casual leagues, there are 2 or 3 guys that do pretty solid research. To assume that NOBODY ELSE knows who your guys is seems like a stretch.

Generally speaking, though, if a whole league of even semi-competitive owners has never heard of a player, then there's an inordinate chance that the player just isn't any good and has little to no chance of being fantasy relevant. Again, we're not talking about run of the mill "sleepers", we're talking about guys who you're 100% positive will not be drafted by anyone else.

IMO though, regardless of whether the guy you want to pick is the next best available (per rankings) or if he is virtually unknown, it's worth taking him over a kicker when the difference between the top several starters at that position is so negligible AND there are plenty of completely acceptable options available every single week during the season.

And, as some others have mentioned, even if you draft your dream kicker and he works out well, you'll have to choose at one point in the season to either drop him for a bye week replacement, play a week without a kicker (something I would never do), or carry 2 kickers (something I would never do).

Maybe somebody on your bench will be expendable enough to afford you the luxury to carry 2 kickers, but that's far from guaranteed. And you vehemently opined in the MJD thread about the importance of utilizing every single bench slot, so I'm sure you wouldn't actually carry 2 kickers, would you? As far as I'm concerned, playing without a kicker should never be an option, especially when there are a dozen free agents who are entirely comparable to whoever the kicker is that you'd be refusing to let go of in that scenario.

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As far as being a slave to projections, I made it a point to mention over and over that these projections are often wrong and even pointed out that owners should do their own detailed research. However, do you think that there is no reason why one player is ranked 40 slots higher than another? Are the experts who work full time year round to formulate these rankings essentially guessing? They are guidelines based on educated analysis. Sometimes the way I draft defies the projections, but we just can't

totally disregard the rankings.

Yup, basically just guessing when it gets to that point. And they are ranked 40 spots higher because they are known names, so people draft them just based on name value. That and people draft low-upside backups, which is a waste in such shallow leagues.

I will say this 1,000 times over, do not listen to the experts - they are not smarter than us on this forum. For gods sake they take defenses in round 7. http://sports.espn.g...k2k12mockdraft2

One of the places where experts and that average player (the ones who influence ADP) are continually and predictably horrible is with sleepers. No way am I going to let them influence my sleeper list even one tiny bit without good evidence as to why I should listen. A name on a list is not good evidence.

If nobody in your league had ever even heard of Alfred Morris, then shame on them. Unless it were an early draft, in that case I applaud your prognosticating abilities to have your heart set on a 3rd string rookie 6th rounder before there was any speculation that he may get snaps.

Why did you want Morris in the first place? Unless you attended Skins training camp or know someone in the organization, I'm guessing you read or saw something to indicate that he may have value. You may have had to do research to see this but even in casual leagues, there are 2 or 3 guys that do pretty solid research. To assume that NOBODY ELSE knows who your guys is seems like a stretch.

Early leagues. I was drafting all of the Shanahan backs from playing Shanihanigans over the previous years. Shanahan RBs are good for 100 yards most games, they are really really good - it's the system, not the RBs. Helu and Royster were just as good, and would have been top 10 RBs this year had they won the job.

I didn't know who was going to get touches, but I knew it was going to be one of the three - so often times I drafted all three. I drafted Royster and Morris a bit more often than I drafted Helu because they were so much cheaper, but this is an example of how the "experts" were flat out uneducated fools who had no idea what they were talking about. It's obvious they hadn't put even 10 minutes of thought into it, or owned these players last season, they just were repeating rumors and lies about how Shanahan switches his RBs week to week - which was completely untrue. An insane amount of redskins RBs just got hurt in 2011. There was no reason not to draft all three, even in the earliest of drafts, and I knew whichever one ended up with the job would put up RB1 numbers and wouldn't lose the job except for injury. If you go back in last years Royster, Morris, and Helu threads you can find me saying such things.

I'd be drafting McGahee and Moreno and Daniel Thomas for the same reason. No, they probably won't get the job - but they might and you'll find out before week 1 - so you can drop them for another lottery ticket if not. There's no excuse for them not being owned in every 10 team league drafting right now - and yet they won't be.

edit: and I literally did over 50 mock drafts last year and Morris wasn't drafted in a single out except by me. It wasn't a stretch at all to say I'd probably get him. But I don't draft the same guys in every league anyways, so if I miss Morris in one league I wouldn't have cared. I didn't even draft him in all my leagues - luckily he was on waivers for me to pick up prior to week 1 in the rest of them. But I don't have identical rounds 10-14 in all leagues, so it doesn't matter if I mess up in a single league. I play lots of leagues though, if you play 1, then my advice is be lucky. Because luck trumps skill hardcore if you only play 1 league.

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The reason Morris wasn't drafted in mocks is because the way most mocks go. People stick around for the first 5-7 rounds and after that leave, so the computer forces defenses and kickers and goes by their ranks, which on many sites are made real early and don't change quick(see yahoo for example). Alfred Morris went in every "real" draft that I did, along with Helu/Royster. Point is, kicker is deep as anything and basically unpredictable over the course of a year and can reasonably be picked on a week to week basis based on matchups/weather/etc. You also have a kicker bye week, which means you either carry 2 or you have to drop your kicker and pick up someone else or play without a kicker, which may cost you a win and is just pretty stupid to give your opponent a 10 point advantage in a competitive league. You can pick up a top 10 kicker any week you want for no waiver money. You can't pick up even a playable RB off waivers most weeks or will have to blow all waiver priority/money to do so.

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He wasn't drafted in my real drafts either. As I said I did 13 ten team leagues and he wasn't drafted by anybody other than me in a single one. If you look through this forum, you'll find that he wasn't drafted in loads of peoples leagues, except if by them. Obviously it depended on leagues size and when the draft was, but Morris was not drafted in very many ten team leagues at all - primarily because the experts wrongly told everybody to avoid Shanihanigans.

Keep in mind Morris wasn't even being drafted in ten team leagues even in fantasyfootballcalc last year, and as far as I know ESPN and Yahoo do their ADP by real drafts - which did not have him drafted in most ten team leagues. And when it gets to real draft time, a lot of people do stick around to the end in mocks.

That's also why I said you have to do it from league to league. When you play with randoms in yahoo pro leagues it's different than playing with your casual friends, and it's different from playing with other people who are really into it. I don't think it's a stretch to say you have a pretty decent idea how people draft after drafting with them for several years. If you don't that's fine, but I do. And I'm saying let it go case by case.

If you're pretty sure Morris gets drafted if you don't take him in round 10, then you better take him in round 10 if you want him. If you're pretty sure Morris will go undrafted if you don't draft him, then don't worry about it so much. No two leagues are the same, know your league.

FWIW, especially in ten team leagues I can pick up a RB3 most weeks, even without a high waiver order. We've repeatedly had disagreements over this, but I provided a list of about 20 different RB3's I had started across various leagues. RB3's are insanely common and easy to get in ten team leagues and even somewhat 12 team leagues. The response from the other guy was he'd never start any of those guys. Which is of course the reason I'm able to have my pick of low end startable RBs every year in the vast majority of 10 and 12 team leagues.

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But I'm not trying to argue in favor of jumping up for a kicker in lots of cases. I'm just saying, if you have a man crush on somebody - like that other guy did on Gostkowski - then for all practical purposes it may not matter if he takes Gostkowski in round 13. I'm not saying it's always a good idea, but that sometimes it doesn't really matter.

Wouldn't you be hugely bummed if in 2011 you really wanted Akers, but didn't jump up for him? The difference between Akers and the 12th best kicker was 58 points in standard scoring, the same as the difference between Marshawn Lynch (5th best RB) and Ahmed Bradshaw (20th best RB). I would be incredibly bummed if I had been thinking about jumping up to round 12 to grab Akers in 2011, but instead decided to draft Steve Smith (PHI).

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In short I'm saying: What's a good idea and bad idea changes from league to league and situation to situation. Know your league, know your situation, that will guide what you should do. If you disagree with that, I don't even know what to say.

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FWIW, especially in ten team leagues I can pick up a RB3 most weeks, even without a high waiver order. RB3's are insanely common and easy to get in ten team leagues and even somewhat 12 team leagues.

Huh? Even in a 10 team league, each owner is going to be rostering at least 4 or 5 RBs. Let's say each team owns 4.5 RBs (I usually draft 6 in leagues with 16 roster slots, but this is just for the sake of argument). That's the top 45 RBs in the league. When you're heading to waivers, the best guy available in any decent league is going to be about the 46th best RB.

Even in 12 team leagues, where you infer that it's also a simple task to pick up RB3s, the top 54 backs or so will be owned. I honestly just can't follow your logic on any of these posts.

Obviously there are sometimes injuries that vault a guy from relative obscurity into RB2/RB3 territory, but you will always need a high waiver priority or to break the bank on your FAAB to obtain that kind of back.

Even if every owner in the league drafts, and then never even logs into the league site for the entire season, I'd be hard pressed to believe that RB3s are "insanely common" in a 10 team league.

This question isn't intended to sound condescending, I play in a few casual leagues myself, but who the hell are you playing with? The way you're certain that nobody will draft the guys you want and the way you portray the wire in your leagues indicates that you may be playing against the least active/informed owners in fantasy history.

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If you don't play in 10 team leagues ever then you shouldn't pretend to know how they work. I already had the argument over RB3's and I don't feel like retyping everything over again for another nonbeliever who doesn't even play in ten team leagues. See here http://forums.rotowo...40#entry3517790

I also like the fall back defense of: well you must play in joke leagues then. Good stuff.

It's always easy to say afterwards that people should have been drafting Morris, but the fact is that even here on Rotoworld lots posters were telling everybody not to waste their time with Morris and to sell high after week 1 and I was one of the minority saying hold onto him since he's a RB1.

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This is also the key quote which proves you have no idea at all what you're talking about so I have no interest in continuing this argument with you.

Even if every owner in the league drafts, and then never even logs into the league site for the entire season, I'd be hard pressed to believe that RB3s are "insanely common" in a 10 team league.

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Well, I never indicated that I don't play in 10 team leagues. I don't know where you would have gotten that idea from. I have played in many. I just don't see how you can argue that, unless all of the other owners are incredibly inactive or uninformed, at least the top 40-50 RBs will likely be owned at all times.

There may be a few that slip through the cracks from time to time but referring to RB3s as "incredibly common" is the height of hyperbole. In a 10 team format, the RB3s are the top 21-30 RBs. Please elaborate on how/why these players are available so readily.

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See link above. I told you I already had this argument and elaborated there, go there if you want to see it. In short, it's because they don't play the whole season.

Your quote above already told me I'm wasting my time and we'll never see where each other are coming from. I honestly, can't even understand how anybody who has played in even a single, fantasy football league ever in their life could believe such a thing. I don't want to say you're trolling, but I don't know how else to explain it from somebody with almost 4.5k posts here.

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Yeah, you got me. I'm trolling. Lol. Green, you have hijacked three threads (that I've seen, maybe I missed a couple) over the past week with blatant trolls.

Now I'm using logic and numbers to make my case and that's a troll? While you are referencing extreme circumstance and blind luck essentially and calling anybody who isn't on board a fool (not to mention completely fabricating things, like saying that I've never played in a 10 team league.....still don't know where the hell you got that idea but I'm the troll, I guess)?

Us trolls love to say crazy things like "don't take your kicker until the last round" because that's such an insane, unheard of position.

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Saying that even in dead leagues it would be rare to find RB3's. You can't possibly be serious. Best waiver wire options according to Senator Spaceman: none. anybody who could ever be decent has already been drafted.

You never used any numbers anywhere in this thread to argue your case that preseason rankings are any good past round 12. That's what I've been arguing against.

I haven't been saying you should take your kicker before the last round regularly, just that in certain well defined circumstances that's okay. In general it's best to wait, but there are exceptions. I don't think saying there's a couple exceptions to the rule is a crazy thing to say.

Even in a 10 team league, each owner is going to be rostering at least 4 or 5 RBs. Let's say each team owns 4.5 RBs (I usually draft 6 in leagues with 16 roster slots, but this is just for the sake of argument).

That's where I got the idea that you rarely play in ten team leagues. You implied it yourself. You usually play in 16 team leagues, but for the sake of argument this is how you imagine ten team leagues work.

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Okay, I promise that this is the LAST time I will say this, so pay attention.

In a TEN TEAM LEAGUE where owners are paying any attention at all, the top 45 (probably more) RBs will be owned. RB3s in that league are the 21st-30th best RBs. Stating that RB3s are "incredibly common" is absolutely egregious. None of your arguments in retort stand any bearing. I'm starting to think it feasible that you don't really have a great hold on how to quantify a RB3.

Last season, 5 of the top 30 standard scoring RBs might not have been taken in 10 team drafts (Morris, J. Bell, Moreno, Woodhead, Ballard). That's FIVE total for the entire season. So, when the season commences, there are only 5 RB3s or better available. That's not even one for every team in the league for the ENTIRE SEASON but you're saying that they are "incredibly common" on a weekly basis. That's absurd, plain and simple.

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In a ten team league, who is and is not a RB3 changes hugely from week to week. That's what you don't seem to get.

A RB3 in a ten team league is somebody who you expect, in that week, to get 7 points. http://forums.rotoworld.com/index.php?showtopic=351535

It doesn't mean I expect them to get 7 points in every matchup, but if I think a RB will get 7 points in week 8 and 0 points in every other week, he's still a RB3 for week 8.

Also looking at end of season rankings is a terrible measure of how good a RB is on a week to week basis.

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Okay, I promise that this is the LAST time I will say this, so pay attention.

In a TEN TEAM LEAGUE where owners are paying any attention at all, the top 45 (probably more) RBs will be owned. RB3s in that league are the 21st-30th best RBs. Stating that RB3s are "incredibly common" is absolutely egregious. None of your arguments in retort stand any bearing. I'm starting to think it feasible that you don't really have a great hold on how to quantify a RB3.

Last season, 5 of the top 30 standard scoring RBs might not have been taken in 10 team drafts (Morris, J. Bell, Moreno, Woodhead, Ballard). That's FIVE total for the entire season. So, when the season commences, there are only 5 RB3s or better available. That's not even one for every team in the league for the ENTIRE SEASON but you're saying that they are "incredibly common" on a weekly basis. That's absurd, plain and simple.

At first I thought you were right. But then I looked at guys that green mentioned, and I did see them on the wavier wire. And it's going to change from week to week, you can't just look at the first week or the end of season totals. Ballard was available. Leshoure was available in some leagues at the start of the season. Guys like Moreno, Bryce Brown, and Reece stepped up towards the end of the season. Andre Brown put up some good games in the middle of the season. Felix Jones had some RB3 numbers for a couple of weeks in the middle of the season. Dwyer had a few weeks where he put up decent numbers.

Part of the issue is there's not a defined area for RB3 imo. A team that drafts RBs in the first 3 rounds is going to have a better RB3 than someone whose RB3 is a mid-late round sleeper. It depends if RB3 is someone who you're actually starting or someone sitting on your bench (and instead you're using 3 WRs). Also in general RB3's are not consistent - otherwise they would be more like RB2's.

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Part of the issue is there's not a defined area for RB3 imo. A team that drafts RBs in the first 3 rounds is going to have a better RB3 than someone whose RB3 is a mid-late round sleeper.

Yes, there is a defined area for referring to a guy who has RB3 value.

When we talk about a team's specific RB3, we're simply talking about the #3 back on that team. That could be the 10th best RB in the league or the 50th best.

But when we refer to a guy having "RB3 value" we're talking (in a ten team league, since that is apparently the new standard for legitimacy) about the 21st-30th best backs.

After a given week is over, it's easy to look back at it and say "oh, wow, there were a couple of RBs on the wire who finished in the top 30 this week", because there will often be a surprising over-achiever or two, but out of the guys who are projected (by experts, owners, whoever) to be the top 30 backs going into that week, using educated qualitative and quantitative research, there's a great chance that 100% of them are already owned.

And even if there are 2, 3, 4 guys from that list who are available, that still does not make them "insanely common". It means that the guys who have the best waiver spots are going to score those backs. Free agent RBs don't suddenly enter the top 30 without having a claim made on them by half the owners in any league.

I also like the fall back defense of: well you must play in joke leagues then. .

I see the "who are you playing with?" comments thrown around a lot on the forums, usually just as ribbing, but Green I was serious when I asked how competitive your leagues are since there are ALWAYS an INSANE amount of top 30 caliber backs on the wire in them. I'm thinking it might be mostly free public leagues with abandoned teams.

Like I said before, some of my leagues are pretty casual but even in those leagues, if a free agent RB gains enough value to vault him into the top 30 range for that given week, he is very likely going to get snatched up.

I'm guessing your retort will be that experts and every other owner alive doesn't know how to rank backs as well as you do and you are able to magically determine who will come out of nowhere and have a top 30 day when nobody else expected it because, like you've implied throughout this thread, you are high on backs that even fantasy experts have never heard of.

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Wow, this turned into a long crazy thread covering a wide variety of draft / WW theory. I appreciate all the comments and learned a thing or two along the way.

My initial question was answered quite neatly. I will just make the draft closer to the start of the reg season and not get into dictating rules about drafting kickers / DEF. Whoever wants to take fliers on prospects and then stream K/DEF is welcome to do so and whoever wants to use their last picks on a K and DEF are also welcome to do so.

Please feel free to keep the thread going with any more pertinent discussion.

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1) DrRazvi, sorry for hijacking your thread. Glad you got your question answered at least.

2) I play in competitive money leagues. The least competitive leagues I played in were yahoo pro leagues, the most competitive are leagues where I have played with the same people for years. More often than not I don't get the waiver wire guys I want.

3) It's not because I'm smarter than everybody that I can get RB3 production (here defined as an expectation of 7 points = roughly top 30 RB in any given week) pretty much whenever I want, but because nobody wants it that bad. Despite 50 RBs being owned, they are not the top 50 RBs for each week. Some of them are handcuffs, some of them are injured or suspended players, some of them are on byes, some of them are high upside guys they think might steal the job.

4) Dropping players is costly. You don't get to pick up a player without dropping somebody. Pretend you have a guy who you think will give you 5 points this week, but you like him in future weeks. Are you really going to drop somebody on your roster so you can pick up a guy who you think will give you 7 points this week, but you don't like at all for future weeks?

I leave guys who I think will be in the top 30 RBs in any given week on the wire all the time because of concerns like above. However, when and if I need them, they will be there. Just like they will be there for anybody else.

5) Please stop working in your imagination and hypothesizing how you think things should be. Just go to your leagues like Prea did and see for yourself that a lot of those guys were available at some point in your league - and even if they got picked up, it's not like it took huge waiver bids or #1 waivers to grab them all the time.

There's a reason why Danny Woodhead only had 32% ownership in ESPN leagues last year despite finishing as a top 30 RB (he was incidentally owned in most of my leagues fwiw). It's not because people are stupid or leagues are dead - it's because there's simply not all that much demand for a very low upside RB3. Sure he may give you a point more in any given week than you'd otherwise get, but owners aren't really concerned with such small point amounts when they cap your long term upside.

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I think there is some difference in thoughts in what makes a RB3. In my book an RB 3 is someone with some upside and not just a guy entrenched in a committee with no chance at all of getting out of the committee(see Ingram/Tolbert/Reece). I've had to spot start these guys before to, so I understand that. And in PPR I'd draft Woodhead over a kicker and most other guys would too. But, just because you are able to pick up a guy that may get 5-10 points any given week(or may get a goose-egg), doesn't mean that you should draft a kicker instead of something else on the board. In a 12 team league, there are 20 kickers on the wire at any point. Kickers are matchup and weather sensitive and will NEVER cost you any significant waiver dollars. Gamble RBs may not cost you any waiver dollars, but they may cost your whole wad. I went back and looked at how waiver wire dollars were spent in my league last year. A total of 10 dollars were spent on kickers. most were picked up free. We had 16 Rbs that cost MORE than 10 dollars at some point during the year(D.Richardson, Powell, Choice, Battle, Green, Howling, Hillis, Tanner, Hardesty, Owens, Hillman, Mendy, Beanie, Reece, D.Thomas, Vereen). So what is the point? Point is, at some time during the season all these RBs had enough value to cost more waiver dollars than the entire lot of kickers, so if they are sitting on your bench rather than on waivers, then you can make a trade or capatalize on their value when there is injury. It's supply and demand. Leagues demand Rbs, they don't demand kickers. Waiver wire is proof of that.

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I don't think the confusion is over what a RB3 is. I was very clear in that I was talking about on a weekly basis, and in any given week I think a person is a RB3 if they are projected to be top 30 in that week (which is typically around 7 points in ten team leagues with standard scoring). It has absolutely nothing to do with upside, or good outlook for future weeks, or anything like that.

Senator spaceman said: "if a free agent RB gains enough value to vault him into the top 30 range for that given week, he is very likely going to get snatched up."

So I'm confident he understood me, he just had a mistaken belief that these players are valued significantly higher than they are. Probably out of a misunderstanding of how important matchups are, and how much the rankings change on a week to week basis. Like you said, you don't even consider those guys to be "RB3's", and you only start them if you absolutely have to. That's how a lot of people are, and why these RBs are almost always available. I was just arguing against the myth that it's super hard to fill your RB3 slot with a roughly top 30 RB on a week to week basis. It's in fact very easy, for everybody, to find such RBs.

Also I think people keep trying to change the argument, despite me being very consistent in my claim. The argument was never that kickers are more valuable than RBs or anything like that. The argument is quite simply, if you can still get the bench players you want, there's really very little harm in upgrading your kicker. So I was never saying it's better to have a kicker on your bench instead of Jackie Battle. I was just saying, if you're going to end up with Jackie Battle either way, and you like Gostkowski more than Randy Bullock, it's not a terrible idea to draft Gostkowski and then Battle as opposed to Battle and then Bullock.

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I'd like to comment on some of the side action, but I'll drop my K/DT thoughts in just in case this gets closed...

I think if your league requires a starting K or DT, then you should be required to leave the draft with one. I think the end of the draft should be treated as if there wouldn't be a Free Agent/Waiver period before Week 1's games, even if there is clearly going to be a scheduled period to pick up new players.

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A rule is a rule (or lack of one).

Attempting to analyze kickers is like herding cats. Just pick one on a high scoring team and call it good.

DET

ATL

DEN

NE

NO

GB

Then if you notice a few weeks in that some team is sucking big wang in the redzone week in week out pick up that guy off the WW.

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I was just arguing against the myth that it's super hard to fill your RB3 slot with a roughly top 30 RB on a week to week basis. It's in fact very easy, for everybody, to find such RBs.

C'mon man. It's very easy for everybody to find one? You try to epitomize hyperbole to make your point but it just comes across sounding crazy.

You're saying that in a 10 team league (since that's all you're willing to discuss) that every team can land what you'e referring to as an RB3 (btw, it's irresponsible to change the commonly accepted meaning of fantasy terms in your posts in order to save your flailing argument....it makes it look like you don't really know what you're talking about). So there are 10 RBs on the wire every single week that are going to score 7+ points (NO!) and you're going to magically be able to determine who these backs are (HELL NO!)?

I realize that you love to defy logic and common opinion to look radical or whatever but the point is kind of to not make it so obvious all the time, green.

As far as me misunderstanding how what you're referring to as "RB3s" are valued, I don't think that's the case. I think that, like most users on this board, I just play in a lot of leagues where owners realize how important backfield depth is and how difficult it is to establish while every single post you've made implies that you play in ultra-casual, inactive leagues where the wire serves as your own personal farm system.

I never obligatorily make accusations about the competitiveness of one's league but if there are 10+ top 30 caliber RBs on the wire every single week, something is wrong.

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I was just arguing against the myth that it's super hard to fill your RB3 slot with a roughly top 30 RB on a week to week basis. It's in fact very easy, for everybody, to find such RBs.

C'mon man. It's very easy for everybody to find one? You try to epitomize hyperbole to make your point but it just comes across sounding crazy.

You're saying that in a 10 team league (since that's all you're willing to discuss) that every team can land what you'e referring to as an RB3 (btw, it's irresponsible to change the commonly accepted meaning of fantasy terms in your posts in order to save your flailing argument....it makes it look like you don't really know what you're talking about). So there are 10 RBs on the wire every single week that are going to score 7+ points (NO!) and you're going to magically be able to determine who these backs are (HELL NO!)?

I realize that you love to defy logic and common opinion to look radical or whatever but the point is kind of to not make it so obvious all the time, green.

As far as me misunderstanding how what you're referring to as "RB3s" are valued, I don't think that's the case. I think that, like most users on this board, I just play in a lot of leagues where owners realize how important backfield depth is and how difficult it is to establish while every single post you've made implies that you play in ultra-casual, inactive leagues where the wire serves as your own personal farm system.

I never obligatorily make accusations about the competitiveness of one's league but if there are 10+ top 30 caliber RBs on the wire every single week, something is wrong.

The problem with the argument that there are 10+ RB3's on waivers each week may be somewhat true, but the reasoning behind trying to use that as a crutch is incredibly flawed.

Like Spaceman said, after the week is over there may have been 10 guys who put up 7+ points for the week on waivers, but many of those guys wouldn't have been the guys to add in waivers for the week BEFORE the games. Most of the "perceived" usable waiver guys will put up less than 7 points, making them not RB3 values. Trying to stream RB's is going to be the biggest disaster you can even imagine, no matter how small the league -- people don't just own 2 RB's, most people will have 5-6 RB's on their roster so the top 50-60 guys are gone before you even get a shot to find a waiver option.

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Senator Spaceman, it doesn't mean there's ten on the waiver. If after waivers clear there's even one available, that means there is an excess in the league - and that there are more top 30 RBs for that week available than the league demands. If any team in the league wanted that player, they could get them, therefore I would say that means it's really easy.

I don't know where you got the idea that I was saying there was ten such guys available, I never hinted at any such thing. I was merely suggesting that every week there are often a couple guys who are ranked top 30, going into the week, who will stay on waivers and nobody will claim in most leagues. If there's a weekly top 30 RB that goes unclaimed the whole week I'm not sure how you can pretend it's super hard to get him. Yeah everybody can't pick up one person, but any of the ten can - yet none of them want to.

I have never changed what I was talking about with a RB3 either I was also very clear and explicit that I was referring to somebody you think will get 7 points - going into the week - and I really don't appreciate your hostility. You have provided no evidence of what you were saying the whole time, all you have done is insulted my leagues, try to manipulate my words into making it seem like I was arguing for something I was not, and failed to respond to my claims or examples.

What I would request from the people arguing against me, instead of talk about how I play in joke leagues and you play in ultra serious leagues (despite me informing you otherwise, and Prea informing you the situation was indeed similar in his leagues after he bothered to actually check), is please post all the RBs owned in some week in your most competitive league. I will show you that there were good RBs (ex-ante, not ex-post) that were not picked up or started.

For example, this expert is my favorite in terms of week to week rankings: http://www.beastdome... because he takes matchups into account when doing his weekly rankings, which most experts only do to a small extent, and this is why this guy typically finishes among the top experts on fantasypros in terms of accuracy. So let's look at his week 16 rankings, he has Ryan Grant and Beanie Wells ranked in the top 30 - yet both were available in one of my more competitive leagues where people manage their teams through the end. Beanie Wells disappointed as he got hurt in that game, but Ryan Grant put up a great 23 points. These guys were available in my league, and a lot of leagues. Although they weren't available in all leagues, somebody else was likely available - for example Mark Ingram was ranked just outside the top 30 and was owned and started in my league but may not have been in others, Joique Bell was also ranked in the top 30 and was owned in my league although not started.

Are you really saying if somebody is in a league where any of Ryan Grant, Beanie Wells, Mark Ingram, or Joique Bell aren't picked up they are a joke league?

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The problem with the argument that there are 10+ RB3's on waivers each week may be somewhat true, but the reasoning behind trying to use that as a crutch is incredibly flawed.

I would really appreciate it if you responded to the argument I have actually been putting forward instead of a distorted version of an argument that has no basis in anything I have said.

I was consistent and clear that I was classifying them as top 30 going into the week instead of coming out:

A RB3 in a ten team league is somebody who you expect, in that week, to get 7 points.

And I never hinted that I was talking about 10+ RB3's and I don't think there was any confusion over this. For example Senator Spaceman was arguing very strongly that even one of these guys would rarely be available in a league of his:

Like I said before, some of my leagues are pretty casual but even in those leagues, if a free agent RB gains enough value to vault him into the top 30 range for that given week, he is very likely going to get snatched up.

I do appreciate others providing their input, but not when people bandwagon on to distort my words.

edit: also the link to the rankings I used was broken in my previous post.

www.beastdome.com/2012/fantasy-football-rankings-beast-alert-week-16/

You'd also be surprised at how effective streaming RBs can be. I have won leagues streaming RBs and I know other people like rraayy3 have as well.

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The problem with the argument that there are 10+ RB3's on waivers each week may be somewhat true, but the reasoning behind trying to use that as a crutch is incredibly flawed.

I would really appreciate it if you responded to the argument I have actually been putting forward instead of a distorted version of an argument that has no basis in anything I have said.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't think you were the God of the universe, but we can't always get what we want. I was trying to see it from your side, but forget it now...

These were the first 12 free agent RB's on waivers after Week 13 last year in my main league...

Danny Woodhead

Dexter McCluster

Kendall Hunter (IR)

Jason Snelling

Toby Gerhart

Cedric Benson (IR)

Charles Clay (IR)

Peyton Hillis

Justin Forsett

Cedric Peerman

Montell Owens

Chris Ogbonnaya

So, yes I do think you are playing in a small league that isn't nearly as difficult as some of the leagues others of us play in. If your league is setup so that you can find startable RB's weekly on waivers, then it's NOT AS DIFFICULT AS SOME OTHER LEAGUES PEOPLE HERE ARE IN, period.

There's a reason people stick to their 8 and 10 man leagues, it's because they suck or are lazy, or are both and don't want to research or admit to themselves the truth and don't want to step up and play in a real league.

Come try an NFFC league and try to find playable RB's every week on waivers, you'll be begging to be back in your 10-team Yahoo league real quick.

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