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15 minutes ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

His commercials are pretty awesome and so his "Peyton's Place".

SNL has sucked for a while, but I think Peyton would be awesome to host in SNL some day...

I thought he did host a SNL already?... heh.. guess im just surprised he didnt yet! Shocking.

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1 hour ago, cashvillesent said:

14 out of the 20 living HoF QB's picked Manning over Brady. 3 refused to pick. 2 chose Brady. 1 (Montana) Said that he'd take Brady first half and Manning 2nd half.

try again...or actually..stop trying.

And i bet those hall of famers that voted against brady were beaten by brady. more pats haters

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7 minutes ago, SyNdicateZ said:

And i bet those hall of famers that voted against brady were beaten by brady. more pats haters

 

Nah, I think it was more than a fair argument back in 2009 as to who one would prefer between Brady and Manning. I'm not surprised that those were the results then. But last I checked, a lot has happened in the 10+ YEARS since that "vote" happened.

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1 hour ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

So hostile while you try to pick fights on the internet surrounded by your dislike of NE. Just go away, it's clear how everyone feels about your biased opinions.....

 

In terms of this thread, everyone is allowed to express their opinion on this board hence the topic Brady vs manning and in terms of the above quoted I would say pot meet kettle . . 😉

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2 hours ago, sSektor said:

 

 


And this isn't even a narrative worth arguing. Mannings hopes of being considered better than Brady by reasonable, unbiased media members/fans died after Brady won his 4th, was buried in 2016, and then more dirt was thrown on top of it in 2017 and 2018. His claim to fame is being a regular season monster when surrounded by elite pass catching talent (every game of his career basically), and game-managing his way to 2 superbowls to the extent that people imagine 01-04 Brady game-managed. We get it people think he's more likeable because he makes commercials and doesn't regularly steamroll everyones favorite teams in the playoffs.

It is worth arguing. Look at the wealth of statistical evidence that shows there's meat to the argument.

Also, as more discerning statistics become accepted by the media and fans you see a change in perception. Baseball has already seen this happen to a tremendous degree with people quoting WAR (wins above replacement) as a good measure of how good players are, even comparing across different positions. That's changed how both fans and media view who is great.

I've said this before, but no way before WAR was developed would you have seen Mike Trout win the MVP 3 times while being on losing teams in 2 of those years! NO WAY that happens without more advanced stats. That day will come too in football, and when that happens Brady will be top 10 but he's not going to be top 3. Manning might make it to top 3, depends. 

Edited by cashvillesent
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Clutch is a myth.

 

An average player will play average across the board.

Example: Do you know Reggie Jacksons' nickname? Mr. October. Why is that his nickname? Well, he was perceived to somehow play better in the postseason than in regular season. He was "clutch". In reality, and like nearly every single other "clutch" player, his postseason play mirrors his regular season play, albeit slightly worse. Most likely due to the strength of the teams played in the postseason. Just like Brady.

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28 minutes ago, dashoe said:

 

In terms of this thread, everyone is allowed to express their opinion on this board hence the topic Brady vs manning and in terms of the above quoted I would say pot meet kettle . . 😉

 

Expressing an opinion can be done in a positive way. Doing so while using incorrect and outdated data while telling someone else to "try again or stop trying" isn't one of those ways and shouldn't be permitted or backed up.

I've asked you politely numerous times now for you to leave me alone. I find it strange that that is so difficult for you to actually do.

Edited by ThreadKiller
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QB's don't play defense. Consider the following statistics:

Correlation between adjusted playoff passer rating and win% in playoffs:
Manning: 0.32
Brady: 0.34

Correlation between points allowed by defense and win% in playoffs:
Manning's defense: -0.54
Brady's defense: -0.45

In other words, on offense Manning and Brady have similar influences on win% while Manning's defense had a much bigger influence on win% (they played poorly at the wrong time more often). You can't just ignore defensive performance when looking at win%.

Oh, and the correlation between playoff passer rating and defense for both QB's is essentially zero, meaning that they don't affect defensive performance in any important way (-0.06 for Manning and -0.05 for Brady). So don't just look at win% or number of SB's and attribute that all to the QB. The correlations on offense show the QB's influence on win% was similar.

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1 hour ago, cashvillesent said:

It is worth arguing.

 

Why did everyone stop trying to argue it after the Falcons SB? Couldn't possibly be because there's nothing left to argue or anything right? And what statistical evidence? Brady has a higher career passer rating despite playing more games, a majority of which were not in a dome, and with less supporting talent on offense. He's won MVP's when surrounded with comparable talent to what Manning had basically every single game of his career. Manning can't hold his jock in career accomplishments. He can have the regular season crown for people who care about that sorta thing if you want.

 

But please go ahead and fall back on "b-but Manning made his receivers they couldn't have actually been that good on their own" and "s-s-system magically guided the ball into the NE wide receivers hands" because that's literally all these irrational attempts to downgrade Brady's career accomplishments devolve into.

 

Manning is old news. Stop hanging onto the dead notion that he's in the same stratosphere as Brady and Montana career accomplishment wise. The only thing to argue now is whether Mahomes has any shot at reaching it because Rodgers probably failed too.

Edited by sSektor
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1 hour ago, cashvillesent said:

QB's don't play defense. Consider the following statistics:

Correlation between adjusted playoff passer rating and win% in playoffs:
Manning: 0.32
Brady: 0.34

Correlation between points allowed by defense and win% in playoffs:
Manning's defense: -0.54
Brady's defense: -0.45

In other words, on offense Manning and Brady have similar influences on win% while Manning's defense had a much bigger influence on win% (they played poorly at the wrong time more often). You can't just ignore defensive performance when looking at win%.

Oh, and the correlation between playoff passer rating and defense for both QB's is essentially zero, meaning that they don't affect defensive performance in any important way (-0.06 for Manning and -0.05 for Brady). So don't just look at win% or number of SB's and attribute that all to the QB. The correlations on offense show the QB's influence on win% was similar.

 

I never understood the SB argument as measuring a great QB. The SB is a game that you win or lose same as the 16 other regular season games. Basically the SB is greatness just shows the herd mentality of the basic fan that buys into the pomp , circumstance and pageantry of the marketing model but ignores all of the production of players who are great without a SB ring.

The SB as a measure of greatness is just a silly datapoint because as quick as some fans are to say Brady is great because he won x amount of SB's they are just as quick to discount ELi's wins as he had good defenses or Warner having a great coach but then forget that many of NE' wins were decided by the equivalent of a fg or solid defense or Hoodie making a great call to mentally psych out the other side (Pete Carroll fatal decision to pass on 1yd line)not massive offensive production from Brady. Marino wasnt a great QB because his TEAM couldnt win a SB? 😂

Teams win games. 

Qb's run offenses not defenses and special teams. So the measure should be the offensive output/proficiency of that QB for all of his games and how they changed the game not just the cherry picked SB wins.🤨

  

Edited by dashoe
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1 hour ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

Kind of like "statistical evidence" from 2009?

No.. looking at one year, a subset of years or just a select subset of games can be misleading. The stats I posted (if you noticed) take into account ALL postseason games or ALL regular season games, and ALL were adjusted for era.

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10 minutes ago, dashoe said:

 

I never understood the SB argument as measuring a great QB.

 

QB is the single most important and impactful position on a football team. The goal of the game is to score more points than the other team and ultimately win a SB. QB's usually play the biggest role in helping achieve that (and sometimes all-time great defenses). It's not as hard to understand as you're making it out to be. 

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11 minutes ago, cashvillesent said:

No.. looking at one year, a subset of years or just a select subset of games can be misleading. The stats I posted (if you noticed) take into account ALL postseason games or ALL regular season games, and ALL were adjusted for era.

 

You used "evidence" from hall of famers taking a survey saying they prefer Peyton Manning over Tom Brady. You provided that as if it has anything to do with the present and failed to mention that it was from over 10 years ago.

 

Should we also use their draft grades as evidence too?

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35 minutes ago, sSektor said:

 

QB is the single most important and impactful position on a football team. The goal of the game is to score more points than the other team and ultimately win a SB. QB's usually play the biggest role in helping achieve that (and sometimes all-time great defenses). It's not as hard to understand as you're making it out to be. 

 

it's one game, Last i checked there were 16 reg season plus 2 or 3 playoff games to be played before the SB. winning a SB is not the metric of a great QB, it's the metric of a great team. Guys like you miss that most important point. 🤣

 

So by the SB equals greatness faulty logic model, Eli Manning is one of the greatest to ever play the QB position and he beat Brady 2-0 so he is greater than Brady. See how that SB logic can go sideways quickly. 😂

Edited by dashoe
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9 minutes ago, dashoe said:

 

it's one game, Last i checked there were 16 reg season plus 2 or 3 playoff games to be played before the SB. winning a SB is not the metric of a great QB, it's the metric of a great team. Guys like you miss that most important point. 🤣

 

So by the SB equals greatness faulty logic model, Eli Manning is one of the greatest to ever play the QB position and he beat Brady 2-0 so he is greater than Brady. See how that SB logic can go sideways quickly. 😂

 

It's the most important game of the season. What good are those 16 prior games if you consistently fail in the playoffs when it actually matters? Winning one SB may not be a metric of a great QB since anyone can get hot and go on a run in the playoffs, but winning multiple definitely is. I didn't miss any point, you're just trying to exclude SB wins from an argument about QBs worth for whatever reason. It's literally the end-goal of every season. Do you think Manning and Brady would rather have extra Superbowls or their MVP awards for regular season stat padding? 
 

Eli Manning is a great playoff QB and is more likely than not going into the HoF because of his performances. Anyone can do it once but he did it twice against the greatest dynasty in NFL history. Some insane people would probably say he shouldn't be a HoF because he wasn't that great in the regular season but who cares? Imagine watching your team and QB play just to enjoy the regular season and not expecting any continued success in the postseason. Or imagine thinking you should win your fantasy league because you scored the most points in the regular season.


So yeah Superbowls will (rightfully) continue to be taken into account when assessing the great QBs. Sorry winning in a team sport is actually important and reflective of the most important position on that team. Meanwhile the extra irrational folks will continue to argue Aaron Rodgers is the greatest ever because he "is the best darn thrower of the football I've ever seen." Or the extra irrational old folks will still cling to Dan Marino or something.

 

 

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1 hour ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

You used "evidence" from hall of famers taking a survey saying they prefer Peyton Manning over Tom Brady. You provided that as if it has anything to do with the present and failed to mention that it was from over 10 years ago.

 

Should we also use their draft grades as evidence too?

Once again.. when you look at ALL data (you know.. the kind I posted), Brady and Manning are similar in terms of passing efficiency in the postseason.

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Ok, what’s the tie breaker with this manning vs Brady debate? What can we use that will ultimately decide who’s better?  I feel like whoever has the hotter wife should win. Pics attachments encouraged to help decide. GO!

Edited by SyNdicateZ
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2 hours ago, sSektor said:

 

It's the most important game of the season. What good are those 16 prior games if you consistently fail in the playoffs when it actually matters? Winning one SB may not be a metric of a great QB since anyone can get hot and go on a run in the playoffs, but winning multiple definitely is. I didn't miss any point, you're just trying to exclude SB wins from an argument about QBs worth for whatever reason. It's literally the end-goal of every season. Do you think Manning and Brady would rather have extra Superbowls or their MVP awards for regular season stat padding? 
 

Eli Manning is a great playoff QB and is more likely than not going into the HoF because of his performances. Anyone can do it once but he did it twice against the greatest dynasty in NFL history. Some insane people would probably say he shouldn't be a HoF because he wasn't that great in the regular season but who cares? Imagine watching your team and QB play just to enjoy the regular season and not expecting any continued success in the postseason. Or imagine thinking you should win your fantasy league because you scored the most points in the regular season.


So yeah Superbowls will (rightfully) continue to be taken into account when assessing the great QBs. Sorry winning in a team sport is actually important and reflective of the most important position on that team. Meanwhile the extra irrational folks will continue to argue Aaron Rodgers is the greatest ever because he "is the best darn thrower of the football I've ever seen." Or the extra irrational old folks will still cling to Dan Marino or something.

 

 

 you're wrong. A QB CANNOT be successful without receivers running good routes and actually, you know, catching the ball.

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Super Bowls being used a measuring stick for QBs is just another example of how QBs get disproportionate credit for winning games and disproportionate blame for losing them. Tom Brady's Super Bowls aren't just about Tom. On the flip side, Peyton and Rodgers flaming out in the post season isn't just about them. You win and lose games as a team and that starts from the coaches and coordinators down to your long snapper. QB play is just part of the story. I can't definitively say that Tom Brady is better than Aaron Rodgers, but he's definitely more accomplished than him. 

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4 hours ago, sSektor said:

 

QB is the single most important and impactful position on a football team. The goal of the game is to score more points than the other team and ultimately win a SB. QB's usually play the biggest role in helping achieve that (and sometimes all-time great defenses). It's not as hard to understand as you're making it out to be. 

 

The QB being the single most important and impactful position on a football team largely depends on that team's personnel and coaching. For most teams this is true. But if you look at a team like the 2000 Ravens, Trent Dilfer was not the most important player on that team. Or the the 5th most important. Plenty of mediocre QBs and game managers have Super Bowl titles off the strength of their defense, running backs, and offensive line. Plus, I would argue that the single most important UNIT on a football team is the offensive line but that's just my opinion. 

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6 hours ago, cashvillesent said:

QB's don't play defense. Consider the following statistics:

Correlation between adjusted playoff passer rating and win% in playoffs:
Manning: 0.32
Brady: 0.34

Correlation between points allowed by defense and win% in playoffs:
Manning's defense: -0.54
Brady's defense: -0.45

In other words, on offense Manning and Brady have similar influences on win% while Manning's defense had a much bigger influence on win% (they played poorly at the wrong time more often). You can't just ignore defensive performance when looking at win%.

Oh, and the correlation between playoff passer rating and defense for both QB's is essentially zero, meaning that they don't affect defensive performance in any important way (-0.06 for Manning and -0.05 for Brady). So don't just look at win% or number of SB's and attribute that all to the QB. The correlations on offense show the QB's influence on win% was similar.

 

Please keep the nerd stats in the baseball section

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2 hours ago, SyNdicateZ said:

Ok, what’s the tie breaker with this manning vs Brady debate? What can we use that will ultimately decide who’s better?  I feel like whoever has the hotter wife should win. Pics attachments encouraged to help decide. GO!

 

All I know is Superbowl Wins (AKA the biggest accomplishment possible for any player) is not relevant to the conversation because they hurt my incredibly pointless argument regarding two players with nearly identical career passer ratings. In fact throw out the entire playoffs because that hurts the chances of the guy I don't hate winning this argument. Also please throw out supporting WR cast because one guy makes his receivers and the other is part of a magical system. Can I also mention that I really dislike that one QB?

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