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Toronto Blue Jays 2017 Outlook


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24 minutes ago, azeri98 said:

They need a lot of pieces but aren't willing to trade prospects because they want to get younger, which i agree with, so where does that leave them, they also need a shortstop, the one they have is terrible

 

You don't need some flawless lineup top to bottom to be successful.  Tulo could hit better, but he's also a great defensive SS, and many worse offensive SS' have won WS titles.  

 

People in here act like you need to have the full AL All-Star team lineup to compete.  If you can't be a competitive offensive team with Donaldson, Bautista, Smoak hitting how he is, Morales, an above-average offensive catcher, etc. then almost every team in the AL should pack it in now and trade their whole roster for prospects.

 

I would expect any pieces they add before the deadline will be smaller rental type guys.  They aren't going to be trading a top prospect like Vlad, which is a good thing, but I don't think they are against trading a lower level prospect or two for a competent LF bat and a middle reliever.  They don't need to trade for MVP caliber players to see an upgrade over the AAA guys they've been running out there at these spots.

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5 minutes ago, handyandy86 said:

 

You don't need some flawless lineup top to bottom to be successful.  Tulo could hit better, but he's also a great defensive SS, and many worse offensive SS' have won WS titles.  

 

People in here act like you need to have the full AL All-Star team lineup to compete.  If you can't be a competitive offensive team with Donaldson, Bautista, Smoak hitting how he is, Morales, an above-average offensive catcher, etc. then almost every team in the AL should pack it in now and trade their whole roster for prospects.

 

I would expect any pieces they add before the deadline will be smaller rental type guys.  They aren't going to be trading a top prospect like Vlad, which is a good thing, but I don't think they are against trading a lower level prospect or two for a competent LF bat and a middle reliever.  They don't need to trade for MVP caliber players to see an upgrade over the AAA guys they've been running out there at these spots.

They have 3 good hitters in their line up, JD. molasass and Smoak if you compare their line up to every other team in the AL East its not even close every other team is much better than the Jays, their advantage was supposed to be pitching but with Sanchez and Happ missing a lot of time and Stroman being meh and Estrada getting shelled its a tough task

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1 hour ago, handyandy86 said:

 

You don't need some flawless lineup top to bottom to be successful.  Tulo could hit better, but he's also a great defensive SS, and many worse offensive SS' have won WS titles.  

 

People in here act like you need to have the full AL All-Star team lineup to compete.  If you can't be a competitive offensive team with Donaldson, Bautista, Smoak hitting how he is, Morales, an above-average offensive catcher, etc. then almost every team in the AL should pack it in now and trade their whole roster for prospects.

 

I would expect any pieces they add before the deadline will be smaller rental type guys.  They aren't going to be trading a top prospect like Vlad, which is a good thing, but I don't think they are against trading a lower level prospect or two for a competent LF bat and a middle reliever.  They don't need to trade for MVP caliber players to see an upgrade over the AAA guys they've been running out there at these spots.

 

They had better not. That kid is insane. Age of a high school senior and he's tearing up A ball already. May be the best prospect in baseball. 

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12 hours ago, smeeze said:

There's going to be a 10 game win streak at some point this summer.  The swag will return.  

 

5.0 games back from the Yankees.

Keep dreaming, i'm a huge Jays fan and can see the writing on the wall, they are a .500 team at best, brutal loss last night, they get a great start from Happ and the bullpen which has been pretty good blows it, its just going to be one of those years

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22 hours ago, smeeze said:

There's going to be a 10 game win streak at some point this summer.  The swag will return.  

 

 

I wish I could agree with you, or at least have the same kind of hope. But even as a reasonable optimist, I'm just not feeling it for the Blue Jays and 2017. I didn't like their off-season. And then April came along and stunk like a thin watery turd. Feels like a very mediocre year.

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3 hours ago, k.k. said:

 

I wish I could agree with you, or at least have the same kind of hope. But even as a reasonable optimist, I'm just not feeling it for the Blue Jays and 2017. I didn't like their off-season. And then April came along and stunk like a thin watery turd. Feels like a very mediocre year.

 

Have some faith.  The offseason wasn't a disaster by any means.  Steve Pierce is better than Saunders and Kendrys has been almost as good as Edwin thus far.  Getting a healthy Sanchez back will be huge and a couple deadline deals for some bullpen help could be a difference- maker.  

 

 

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7 hours ago, smeeze said:

 

Have some faith.  The offseason wasn't a disaster by any means.  Steve Pierce is better than Saunders and Kendrys has been almost as good as Edwin thus far.  Getting a healthy Sanchez back will be huge and a couple deadline deals for some bullpen help could be a difference- maker.  

 

 

Steve Pearce being better than Saunders is like saying my Dodge Dart is better than your Geo Metro.  Both suck.  Other than that I agree.  Sanchez coming back is going to be a nice boost.

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10 hours ago, smeeze said:

 

Have some faith.  The offseason wasn't a disaster by any means.  Steve Pierce is better than Saunders and Kendrys has been almost as good as Edwin thus far.  Getting a healthy Sanchez back will be huge and a couple deadline deals for some bullpen help could be a difference- maker.  

 

 

If you're bringing up Steve Pearce as a positive this team is in more trouble than i thought, he brings new meaning to the word "butcher" when i watch him play left field, yes they are in the wildcard hunt but they are behind 8 teams, good luck passing 8 teams to get there

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This team needs to be blown up IMO. It's not going to win the division with it's up and down line up, low to midling bullpen and starters and revolving door of old injured players. Morales, Donaldson, Tulo, Bautista, Martin, these big names need to be put on the market so this team can build its farm up again. 

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57 minutes ago, azeri98 said:

If you're bringing up Steve Pearce as a positive this team is in more trouble than i thought, he brings new meaning to the word "butcher" when i watch him play left field, yes they are in the wildcard hunt but they are behind 8 teams, good luck passing 8 teams to get there

 

How many teams isn't so relevant in June, more so in September when there's not many games left. It's not a big feat to jump over 8 teams within 2.5 games when there's 80+ games left. 

 

And they've already passed more teams than that on their way out of the basement from April. Like smeeze said they just need a little hot streak and they'll be in good shape. 

 

Everyone criticizing the Jays' roster, who else in the WC race is even in a better position? Baltimore's pitching staff is literally historically bad. TB is surprising everyone, but do they have the talent to keep up? KC was off to a horrible start too and has a much worse roster, and they've went on a hot streak and are all of a sudden in the hunt. 

 

Jays are in as good a shape as anyone for that second WC spot. 

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7 minutes ago, handyandy86 said:

 

How many teams isn't so relevant in June, more so in September when there's not many games left. It's not a big feat to jump over 8 teams within 2.5 games when there's 80+ games left. 

 

And they've already passed more teams than that on their way out of the basement from April. Like smeeze said they just need a little hot streak and they'll be in good shape. 

 

Everyone criticizing the Jays' roster, who else in the WC race is even in a better position? Baltimore's pitching staff is literally historically bad. TB is surprising everyone, but do they have the talent to keep up? KC was off to a horrible start too and has a much worse roster, and they've went on a hot streak and are all of a sudden in the hunt. 

 

Jays are in as good a shape as anyone for that second WC spot. 

I would  say Seattle has a better roster, Tampa Bay, Yankees, Red Sox,Texas,and the Royals roster is just as good as the Jays, the orioles have way better hitting but much worse pitching, i don't see  how you can say they are in good shape, their offense is horrible 

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36 minutes ago, handyandy86 said:

 

How many teams isn't so relevant in June, more so in September when there's not many games left. It's not a big feat to jump over 8 teams within 2.5 games when there's 80+ games left. 

 

And they've already passed more teams than that on their way out of the basement from April. Like smeeze said they just need a little hot streak and they'll be in good shape. 

 

Everyone criticizing the Jays' roster, who else in the WC race is even in a better position? Baltimore's pitching staff is literally historically bad. TB is surprising everyone, but do they have the talent to keep up? KC was off to a horrible start too and has a much worse roster, and they've went on a hot streak and are all of a sudden in the hunt. 

 

Jays are in as good a shape as anyone for that second WC spot. 

Yeah? They are?

You think this Jays team is better than:

Yankees, Red Sox, Rays, Indians, Astros, Mariners? They have 35W. The Twins, Royals, Angels, Orioles, and Rangers all have better records.

And if you look at the lineups, I think the Astros, Indians, Red Sox, Yankees, and Rangers are all better teams. The Mariners are probably equal to the Jays. They need to have a healthy and effective starting rotation to hide their glaring holes (100HR with only 316R and 299RBI is brutal). 23rd in OBP, the defence has been bad, and that outfield they've been throwing out is awful.

Bottom 5 in run differential in the AL. 344RA vs 316RS. Road record sucks, home record is pretty meh.

The bullpen has been taxed and is likely only going to get worse - not many teams come to mind that can win by using their BP so much. They have already thrown 262 innings, and their rotation has only thrown 399... that's not good. Their BP threw only 464IP in 2016.

This team is not a contender. Sure, they could make the wildcard. But then what? Get rocked in the ALDS/ALCS? This isn't a WS contending team... 

 

 

Like, people are on about how Molasses is similar to EE. And that Pearce is a good baseball player. Both guys suck at defence. 

Pearce has been really bad. His OBP sucks, his BA sucks, he barely walks, his defence is god awful. Dude can't even DH because of Molasses and all the other old guys.

Molasses has 15HR with 37R/43RBI, but he doesn't really walk, his OBP sucks, and doubles are singles because he's slow AF
Meanwhile, EE has 17HR/40RBI/44R, walks at a 15% rate, has a great OBP.

But outside of that, you can tell this team misses his bat in the lineup. The swagger is gone with no EE. The fun, the calmness, the ... whatever it is guys like him and Big Papi bring to a team. It's gone and replaced with a fat a** who broke his ankle jumping 3 inches off the ground.

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I would rank the Royals and Mariners higher than the Jays. Seattle is just getting healthy. Kansas City, even when it won its world series a few years back was hardly a murderers row, but add a top free agent bat to a chippy hard running, good fielding, well managed line up that plays to its park and it could pose any team a problem. I hate being a pessimist but I just think this Jays team rode a high wave, lost when it had a chance and now should go full on rebuild. 

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Brutal stretch coming up, Orioles, Red Sox, Yankees and Astros,  this stretch  could put the  nail in the coffin, if they can play.500 or better they will still be in it, if not i don't like their chances

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@azeri98 @BlueJaysIn2030 @Armalite I guess we just see things differently.  Sure arguments can be made for a lot of those teams having an advantage of the Jays, but not anything substantial.  To me most of the teams in the WC race are nothing scary, and some of the arguments here are reaching at best.  People's take on KC is especially surprising to me - a month ago everyone thought they were the laughing stock of MLB and had a horrible team and should trade off anyone and everyone, now they go on a winning streak and suddenly they're better than the Jays?  Their #1 SP is Ian freakin' Kennedy.  Seattle is a decent team, but they still have a AAA OF group and they don't even have enough healthy SPs to show a full rotation on their depth chart.  

 

Are there better teams on paper?  Sure, but that's why the games are played.  Are there teams going to finish with better regular season records?  Yep, but good thing there's playoff games.  You don't have to go back far at all to find examples of teams like the 2014 Giants and 2011 Cards winning the WS despite finishing as WC teams and not having "the best" rosters in the league.  They just got into the playoffs and got hot at the right time.

 

I guess that's maybe where we all disagree - to me the goal is just to put together a team good enough to get into the playoffs, and if you can reasonably contend for at least a WC spot then you go to the playoffs and see what you can do.  A team like the Jays has the advantage in a playoff series of being able to throw out some good pitching - Sanchez, Stroman, Estrada, Happ are all better options than anything teams like Baltimore or KC have.  That right there can make them a dangerous playoff team.  

 

If you're going to go into "full rebuild" mode every time you don't think your roster is the best of the best, well you're basically saying "I want to watch a bunch of losers for eternity".  Because the chances of having the best roster in baseball are slim, especially without a salary cap.  Yes Boston and the Cubs are better teams on paper - but if we're going to completely junk the whole team because of that then I guess I don't get when the team is ever going to be ready.  

 

The Jays have a tough stretch coming up for sure, and if they drop out of the WC race in the next few weeks then I agree that selling some pieces off makes sense, but I think to look at a team that's currently in the WC race, has gone to the playoffs the last two seasons, and try to nit-pick that Morales' 15 HR are worse than EE's 17 HR (and his "swagger" is less??) or that Pearce's defense isn't as good as Saunders' (is it?), it's a little too much for me.  If the Jays are 10 GB in 3-4 weeks from now then sure, throw in the towel on this season and get what you can for rentals, but I don't get the logic of throwing in the towel now because the team isn't better than a small fraction of the rest of MLB.

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8 minutes ago, handyandy86 said:

@azeri98 @BlueJaysIn2030 @Armalite I guess we just see things differently.  Sure arguments can be made for a lot of those teams having an advantage of the Jays, but not anything substantial .  Seattle is a decent team, but they still have a AAA OF group and they don't even have enough healthy SPs to show a full rotation on their depth chart.  

So... The Jays?

Rocking an AAA OF, a SS who is hitting under .250, a 2b who is hitting under .250, and a rotation of... Stroman, Happ, Estrada?

They suck. 

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5 minutes ago, handyandy86 said:

@azeri98 @BlueJaysIn2030 @Armalite I guess we just see things differently.  Sure arguments can be made for a lot of those teams having an advantage of the Jays, but not anything substantial.  To me most of the teams in the WC race are nothing scary, and some of the arguments here are reaching at best.  People's take on KC is especially surprising to me - a month ago everyone thought they were the laughing stock of MLB and had a horrible team and should trade off anyone and everyone, now they go on a winning streak and suddenly they're better than the Jays?  Their #1 SP is Ian freakin' Kennedy.  Seattle is a decent team, but they still have a AAA OF group and they don't even have enough healthy SPs to show a full rotation on their depth chart.  

 

Are there better teams on paper?  Sure, but that's why the games are played.  Are there teams going to finish with better regular season records?  Yep, but good thing there's playoff games.  You don't have to go back far at all to find examples of teams like the 2014 Giants and 2011 Cards winning the WS despite finishing as WC teams and not having "the best" rosters in the league.  They just got into the playoffs and got hot at the right time.

 

I guess that's maybe where we all disagree - to me the goal is just to put together a team good enough to get into the playoffs, and if you can reasonably contend for at least a WC spot then you go to the playoffs and see what you can do.  A team like the Jays has the advantage in a playoff series of being able to throw out some good pitching - Sanchez, Stroman, Estrada, Happ are all better options than anything teams like Baltimore or KC have.  That right there can make them a dangerous playoff team.  

 

If you're going to go into "full rebuild" mode every time you don't think your roster is the best of the best, well you're basically saying "I want to watch a bunch of losers for eternity".  Because the chances of having the best roster in baseball are slim, especially without a salary cap.  Yes Boston and the Cubs are better teams on paper - but if we're going to completely junk the whole team because of that then I guess I don't get when the team is ever going to be ready.  

 

The Jays have a tough stretch coming up for sure, and if they drop out of the WC race in the next few weeks then I agree that selling some pieces off makes sense, but I think to look at a team that's currently in the WC race, has gone to the playoffs the last two seasons, and try to nit-pick that Morales' 15 HR are worse than EE's 17 HR (and his "swagger" is less??) or that Pearce's defense isn't as good as Saunders' (is it?), it's a little too much for me.  If the Jays are 10 GB in 3-4 weeks from now then sure, throw in the towel on this season and get what you can for rentals, but I don't get the logic of throwing in the towel now because the team isn't better than a small fraction of the rest of MLB.

I don't disagree with you for the most part, they have a chance but its minor, yes their pitching staff should be the close to the best in AL but Stroman and Estrada have to pitch better and they really need Sanchez back, that being said their offense is one of the worst in the AL and that spells trouble in the AL East, its tough to hold those teams to 3 or 4 runs every game and this year there will be way more sellers than buyers since the NL playoff are set barring a collapse by Colorado or Arizona, so you have to make a decision a little bit earlier on weather you can get in or not otherwise you will be left with pieces to trade but no one to trade them too

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They get shut out  by a guy who has a 9+ ERA for the month June of, Happ has to throw a  no hitter to win a game, this line up is so bad, Pillar had a good 6 week stretch, now he is back to being the Pillar we expected, Tulo should be known as Newlow to match his hitting, they had Russ Martin batting second for a while, i thought your best hitter was supposed to hit 2nd, he's batting a sparkling.220, Pearce, yeesh if they gave out stone glove awards he would win it, he's a platoon guy nothing more, Goins can't hit period, Bautista had a great 3 week stretch in May, the rest of the season, he's playing like an old guy who doesn't have it anymore, Donaldson- not sure what his problem is, Morales has been ok about what we expected, and Smoak has been the crowning jewel of line up,

I wish we could fast forward to 2020, this team is going to be hard to watch until then, Shapiro start trading and get some new blood into this organization, if you can trade Tulo for a mascot or a guy who sells hot dogs, DO IT!

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I hear they are interested in Alex Avila.  He would be a really good fit for the Jays.  He is finally healthy after years of nagging injuries and hitting great for a catcher.  So much so that when James McCann came back from the DL in Detroit and V-Mart went on it he both DH'ed and played 1B when Miggy DH'ed as well as catching a couple of games a week just to keep his bat in the line-up.

He could do the same for Toronto.  Sometimes it is the under the radar role players a team needs as much as some big name.  Maybe more.  At the very least a cheap bat that can hit and play multi-poistions including catcher is nothing to sneeze at.

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11 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

I hear they are interested in Alex Avila.  He would be a really good fit for the Jays.  He is finally healthy after years of nagging injuries and hitting great for a catcher.  So much so that when James McCann came back from the DL in Detroit and V-Mart went on it he both DH'ed and played 1B when Miggy DH'ed as well as catching a couple of games a week just to keep his bat in the line-up.

He could do the same for Toronto.  Sometimes it is the under the radar role players a team needs as much as some big name.  Maybe more.  At the very least a cheap bat that can hit and play multi-poistions including catcher is nothing to sneeze at.

 

Yeah, where's he going to play though?  Smoak and Kendrys are 2 of the 3 good bats in this lineup, and unless Avila can catch every day and they want to send Martin packing, there's no every day spot in the lineup for him.

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1 minute ago, smeeze said:

Yeah, where's he going to play though?  Smoak and Kendrys are 2 of the 3 good bats in this lineup, and unless Avila can catch every day and they want to send Martin packing, there's no every day spot in the lineup for him.

Whoops totally forgot Morales was around.  Well that's a bummer.  He is a good catcher and can hit so he has that going.  I don't know his contract or Martin's but he might also be a piece for the next couple of years as well if Martin is reaching the end of the road.

Why did I forget Morales?  Out of site out of mind I guess.  Sox haven't played the Jays for quite awhile.  Guess I might have noticed him tonight though, heh.  Thanks for catching that.

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The Jays can make a run but I doubt it.

 

LF, 2nd, and bench is horrible. The bullpen also needs help but not much. 

 

Hopefully Sanchez can come back without the blister.

 

They might as well go for it and make some moves this team is old and will not re-sign donaldson when his term is up. The jays management will not fire sale this year so might as well go for it.

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