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Carlos Hyde 2017 Season Outlook


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5 hours ago, ajs723 said:

Hyde has 465 touches in his career. He has 4, count them four, plays that have gone for over 25 yards. FOUR!! On 465 touches. That's dynamic to you? That means he breaks a big run once every 116 touches.

 

The number only goes up to a whopping seven if you count runs even over just 20 yards!

 

I'm a Texans guy and an owner of an Arian Foster jersey. 

 

I say this to preface my statement so you know that I'm not saying this out of hate.

 

But... That dude was slowwww. I'm not doing much research here which I know is asking to be trolled, but I don't remember that guy breaking lots of huge runs either. 

 

That all said... He was the best RB in Houston Texans history by a large margin. 

 

It's asinine to say that a coaching staff doesn't want a guy that can take anything for 6, but it's also not crazy for a coaching staff to love a guy that always gets positive yards and puts you into a position for an easier first down. 

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1 minute ago, timexsocialclub said:

Old Frank Gore.

Had to include the qualifier there. You know that Hyde's most common comp coming out of college was... Frank Gore.

 

So the only guy who isn't dynamic is 102 year old Frank Gore. If that's your bar, then yeah, maybe Hyde is dynamic. 

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2 minutes ago, Dreams And Dwightmares said:

 

I'm a Texans guy and an owner of an Arian Foster jersey. 

 

I say this to preface my statement so you know that I'm not saying this out of hate.

 

But... That dude was slowwww. I'm not doing much research here which I know is asking to be trolled, but I don't remember that guy breaking lots of huge runs either. 

 

That all said... He was the best RB in Houston Texans history by a large margin. 

 

It's asinine to say that a coaching staff doesn't want a guy that can take anything for 6, but it's also not crazy for a coaching staff to love a guy that always gets positive yards and puts you into a position for an easier first down. 

Aggreed on all counts. 

 

I think Shanahan, in particular, is a guy who favors the "guy who can take anything for 6". That's what his track record indicates, and that's probably why he pounded the table for Williams. 

 

Certainly, there would be other coaches who prefer a guy who will always get what's blocked and keep the legs churning. To each his own. 

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13 minutes ago, ajs723 said:

Haha. I'm taking this as a compliment!

 

I guess I'd ask one more question to the "Hyde is a dynamic running back" crowd. 

 

What starting running back in the NFL isn't a dynamic running back, if Hyde is?

Old Frank Gore.

Robert Kelley (assuming he's still starting)

Blount

Jonathan Stewart (assuming he's still starting)

CJ Anderson

Beastmode (last time he played)

 

I'll say the running backs I think are definitively more dynamic than this guy:

 

are

Zeke

Bell

DJ

McCoy

Gurley

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Breakaway speed is the absolute last thing I care about in a running back.

 

Do you have good vision, patience, timing through holes?  Trent Richardson didn't.

 

Do you have good balance, and cutting?  Christine Michael didn't.

 

Can you break arm tackles, deliver blows to defenders?  Jeremy Langford couldn't.

 

Can you run good routes, catch the ball, pass protect?

 

Do all those things and you're going to be a superstar in this league.  You'll consistently get more than what's blocked for, you'll protect your QB, and you'll stay on the field long enough to get meaningful volume because of it.  If, by some mistake of the defense, you find yourself with a wide open field to run through, there are very, VERY few RBs who aren't going to get run down at some point.  And that's fine.  Homerun speed is a nice to have, not a need-to-have.  All those things listed above? Those are need-to-haves in a 3 down bellcow.

 

I think Hyde gives you all of those things.  Joe Williams does not.

 

The run blocking, QB, and WR is more of an issue for Hyde, than Hyde's talent.  He's done more with less than most RBs in the league would be able to.

Edited by Lord_Varys
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3 minutes ago, timexsocialclub said:

Old Frank Gore.

Robert Kelley (assuming he's still starting)

Blount

Jonathan Stewart (assuming he's still starting)

CJ Anderson

Beastmode (last time he played)

 

I'll say the running backs I think are definitively more dynamic than this guy:

 

are

Zeke

Bell

DJ

McCoy

Gurley

Right, and Hyde would be in the mold of that first group. He might even be the best of that group, but this isn't about how good he is, it's about running style. 

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2 minutes ago, Lord_Varys said:

Breakaway speed is the absolute last thing I care about in a running back.

 

Do you have good vision, patience, timing through holes?  Trent Richardson didn't.

 

Do you have good balance, and cutting?  Christine Michael didn't.

 

Can you break arm tackles, deliver blows to defenders?  Jeremy Langford couldn't.

 

Can you run good routes, catch the ball, pass protect?

 

Do all those things and you're going to be a superstar in this league.  You'll consistently get more than what's blocked for, you'll protect your QB, and you'll stay on the field long enough to get meaningful volume because of it.  If, by some mistake of the defense, you find yourself with a wide open field to run through, there are very, VERY few RBs who aren't going to get run down at some point.  And that's fine.  Homerun speed is a nice to have, not a need-to-have.  All those things listed above? Those are need-to-haves in a 3 down bellcow.

 

I think Hyde gives you all of those things.  Joe Williams does not.

 

The run blocking, QB, and WR is more of an issue for Hyde, than Hyde's talent.  He's done more with less than most RBs in the league would be able to.

Fair. Does Kyle Shanahan agree with you? I don't know the answer, but that's the question here. 

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@ajs723

 

1. There are PLENTY of RBs that run a 4.6 40 time or slower. It is not a definitive measure of a players skill or ability.

2. You say Hyde does not have plenty of 20+ yard plays, data is presented showing other players don't have more, and then go on saying not every 20+ yard play is equal and the stat doesn't matter. So why bring it up in the first place? Seems like full blown backpedaling to me.

3. No, I do not care what scouts say. If I present a list of all the times scouts were wrong about a player you would spend the next week reading my post. What an absolutely lazy argument when there is sufficient NFL data on an individual. An argument that is absolutely overused and misused on this forum over and over again.

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1 hour ago, ajs723 said:

Fair. Does Kyle Shanahan agree with you? I don't know the answer, but that's the question here. 

One more thing, do you not consider, for example, Lynch elusive? I assume you are throwing Hyde in the same group as a runner.

 

If not you need to go look up the meaning of the word and come back to this thread.

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1 minute ago, Gohawks said:

@ajs723

 

1. There are PLENTY of RBs that run a 4.6 40 time or slower. It is not a definitive measure of a players skill or ability.

2. You say Hyde does not have plenty of 20+ yard plays, data is presented showing other players don't have more, and then go on saying not every 20+ yard play is equal and the stat doesn't matter. So why bring it up in the first place? Seems like full blown backpedaling to me.

3. No, I do not care what scouts say. If I present a list of all the times scouts were wrong about a player you would spend the next week reading my post. What an absolutely lazy argument when there is sufficient NFL data on an individual. An argument that is absolutely overused and misused on this forum over and over again.

1. It is a measure of how fast a player is though. Quite literally. For the 100th time, I don't mean this as a knock on Hyde. He's not a guy with dynamic breakaway speed, or elusiveness. I feel like a broken record. 

2. I deeply regret bringing up that stat. I thought it supported my point, apparently it just stirred up a veritable ****storm. I take it back. Forget it altogether. 

3. Fair enough. I don't take scouting reports as gospel, but I do think there's value to them. 

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2 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

One more thing, do you not consider, for example, Lynch elusive? I assume you are throwing Hyde in the same group as a runner.

 

If not you need to go look up the meaning of the word and come back to this thread.

Lynch is a unique runner and, in his prime, was extremely difficult to bring down, for a number of reasons. Hyde does not possess the same tackle breaking ability, if that's the point you're making. 


I don't want to get into a semantic debate over the word elusive, haha. 

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1 hour ago, ajs723 said:

1. It is a measure of how fast a player is though. Quite literally. For the 100th time, I don't mean this as a knock on Hyde. He's not a guy with dynamic breakaway speed, or elusiveness. I feel like a broken record. 

2. I deeply regret bringing up that stat. I thought it supported my point, apparently it just stirred up a veritable ****storm. I take it back. Forget it altogether. 

3. Fair enough. I don't take scouting reports as gospel, but I do think there's value to them. 

The 40 yard dash is not a good measure of a RBs ability. It's not even a good measure of breakaway speed. It's only a great measure of a RBs ability to stay ahead once he has broken away.

 

A 10 yard or 20 yard dash is a better test for this.

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9 hours ago, ajs723 said:

Fair. Does Kyle Shanahan agree with you? I don't know the answer, but that's the question here. 

 

I'll point you back to the quotes that @Rolling Thunder posted.

 

GM Lynch:

"I . . . can tell you that we're really high on him and what he might be able to do in this offense. We think he can be a highly productive player, but we're eager to see."

 

HC Shanahan:

"Any talented running back fits your offense. There’s not one type of running back that you need. If you’re a skilled runner, you know how to hit the right gaps, you run through arm tackles and when they block it for 2 (yards), you still get 4 (yards), which means you’re running hard. Carlos has that skill set, and I’m looking forward to working with him.

 

We’re inheriting a tough, talented back.”  “I’m looking forward to getting with him because I know he’s a solid back. I know he had a great college career, and I believe we can get a lot more out of him.

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1 hour ago, Lord_Varys said:

"I'll point you back to the quotes that @Rolling Thunder posted."

 

I looked for those, broke 'em up with and w/o quotation and I find one article, dated March 31st. Prior to the draft I liked Hyde too. You can say this camp cut stuff is out of nowhere, but it isn't. I don't remember the exact date now, but I want to say it was months ago that it was reported that the team had given up on him! The FO can put an end to these rumors, they can circle the wagons within the facility, tell members of the media they are to quote the GM, HC or RB coach with respect to the RB situation. 

 

Oh, no, they'll write whatever they want. Yeah, and the team will deny access to anyone they want! Speech is not free, it's very expensive. Where are the follow up questions? Kyle, there are all these reports, are you looking to trade Carlos Hyde? Have you given up on him and is he going to be cut if you can't move him? Now, perhaps he does address this stuff at some point, maybe tomorrow? But right now, the silence is deafening. For me, it's not so much the Joe Williams koolaid, read below, what they've always done is what they're doing now. I could be wrong again, but they have me believing it.   

 

Quote

"The 49ers this offseason overhauled their group of running backs behind presumptive starter Carlos Hyde... The key component of the new-look group is recent four-round pick Joe Williams... The hope is Williams can evolve into a potential starter and spend the season developing while the team figures out what to do with Hyde, who’s entering the last year of his rookie contract. ... The learning curve is steep for Hyde in the new offense. He spent the last two seasons with the 49ers working almost exclusively on inside zone and zone read runs out of shotgun, which was also a key component of his offense at Ohio State. ...

 

Williams will also benefit from working with running backs coach Bobby Turner, who’s made a habit of producing 1,000-yard rushers out of mid-round draft picks in both Kyle Shanahan and Mike Shanahan’s systems dating back to his time with the Falcons (2015-16), Washington (2010-13) and Broncos (1995-2009)." http://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2017/06/16/ranking-top-25-49ers-no-22-joe-williams/


 

 

Edited by markrc99
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Dynamic is an arbitrary (almost trolling) word where everyone can continually move the bar on what it means to suit one's side of the argument.

 

All NFL caliber RBs are dynamic as they are world class athletes... some have strengths in certain categories while they have limits in others.

Aggressive, effective, forceful, powerful, productive, electric, energizing, forcible, intense are all synonyms for dynamic... look it up for yourself.

 

Perhaps versatile is a more relevant descriptive to use here.

All-purpose, adaptable, flexible, multi-faceted, mobile, etc...

 

Carlos Hyde had one year of Jim Harbaugh and then Jim Tomisula took the reins and SF went on to become the dumpster fire that it is.

I'll offer that SF's offensive strategy has not been not dynamic or versatile, but Carlos Hyde has carried the water for a couple seasons.

(Let's not sidetrack the point by redirecting to health flags).

 

Dynamic or not, Carlos Hyde has been a good soldier on a bad team and now he gets to work with an accomplished, offensive minded coaching staff.

Based on that alone, I think Hyde's best is yet to come.

If they cut him, Hyde's skillset would net him a host of new uniform options.

 

Alfred Morris is not versatile, yet he ran for 1600 & 1300 yards in his two Shanahan years in Washington...

Did it matter that he wasn't a multi-purpose back and can we agree Carlos Hyde is a better RUNNER than Alfred Morris?

 

Fwiw, beat writers are pigeons hoping to become eagles.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Winky
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1 hour ago, markrc99 said:

I looked for those, broke 'em up with and w/o quotation and I find one article, dated March 31st. Prior to the draft I liked Hyde too. You can say this camp cut stuff is out of nowhere, but it isn't. I don't remember the exact date now, but I want to say it was months ago that it was reported that the team had given up on him! The FO can put an end to these rumors, they can circle the wagons within the facility, tell members of the media they are to quote the GM, HC or RB coach with respect to the RB situation. 

 

Oh, no, they'll write whatever they want. Yeah, and the team will deny access to anyone they want! Speech is not free, it's very expensive. Where are the follow up questions? Kyle, there are all these reports, are you looking to trade Carlos Hyde? Have you given up on him and is he going to be cut if you can't move him? Now, perhaps he does address this stuff at some point, maybe tomorrow? But right now, the silence is deafening. For me, it's not so much the Joe Williams koolaid, read below, what they've always done is what they're doing now. I could be wrong again, but they have me believing it.   

 

 

Why it is so hard for you to accept the positive statements (admittedly few) that Lynch and Shanahan have uttered regarding Hyde and admit that you can't find a single negative statement uttered  by either?  Once again, the article you cite in support of your Hyde speculation references ZERO statements from either Lynch or Shanahan.  As has been the case with every piece you've identified in your posts, the author is merely speculating because Williams was drafted, Hyde is not signed for next season, and we've yet to see Hyde perform in the new offense.  

 

Moreover, you neglect to mention that the article you cite is actually one in a series of articles where beat writer Chris Biderman identifies his "Top-25" Niners following OTAs and mini-camp.  In the article you cite, Biderman nominates Williams as his 22nd most important Niner.  Biderman is only down to number 17 in his countdown this season, but do you know where Hyde fell in Biderman's list of most important players on the team last season?  3rd.  It's a safe bet that Biderman ends up nominating Hyde as a similarly important player this time around.

 

Finally, you should not be surprised that neither Shanahan nor Lynch have said much publically about Hyde to refute the media pieces that regurgitate Peter King's draft day story over and over.  Neither have said much about ANY RB on the roster, except the quote from Lynch that I cited in my previous post confirming that he (Lynch) was disappointed in Williams at the start of OTAs.  The regime made it clear from the start that no player (even Navarro Bowman) would be handed anything and that competition would determine the depth chart.  With that policy in place, do you still believe it is wise to read anything into Lynch's and Shanahan's failure to convene a press conference to declare Hyde their choice to lead the backfield in 2017?

 

Actions speak louder than words or, in this instance, silence.  When installing an entirely new offense, practice reps with the first team are gold.  Shanahan gave Hyde 100% of those first team reps.  That speaks more loudly to me than any of the media's speculation whose goal is to improve their click through rates.

 

With the opening of TC today, Shanahan and Lynch will be available repeatedly to the media over the next couple of weeks. Hopefully, we will get some more statements soon about Hyde from the two men who actually run the team.

 

Edited by Rolling Thunder
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19 hours ago, ajs723 said:

"Hyde has 465 touches in his career. He has 4, count them four, plays that have gone for over 25 yards. FOUR!! On 465 touches. That's dynamic to you? That means he breaks a big run once every 116 touches.

 

The number only goes up to a whopping *seven if you count runs even over just 20 yards!"

 

Got buried at the bottom of the last page. Just reposting for my friend who says Hyde is a dynamic runner... 

 

*Actually, 9, I think. Watch out!

 

You're VASTLY underrating how pathetically bad SF has been the last few years up front run blocking and at qb.  

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59 minutes ago, Rolling Thunder said:

 

Why it is so hard for you to accept the positive statements (admittedly few) that Lynch and Shanahan have uttered regarding Hyde and admit that you can't find a single negative statement uttered  by either?  Once again, the article you cite in support of your Hyde speculation references ZERO statements from either Lynch or Shanahan.  As has been the case with every piece you've identified in your posts, the author is merely speculating because Williams was drafted, Hyde is not signed for next season, and we've yet to see Hyde perform in the new offense.  

 

Moreover, you neglect to mention that the article you cite is actually one in a series of articles where beat writer Chris Biderman identifies his "Top-25" Niners following OTAs and mini-camp.  In the article you cite, Biderman nominates Williams as his 22nd most important Niner.  Biderman is only down to number 17 in his countdown this season, but do you know where Hyde fell in Biderman's list of most important players on the team last season?  3rd.  It's a safe bet that Biderman ends up nominating Hyde as a similarly important player this time around.

 

Finally, you should not be surprised that neither Shanahan nor Lynch have said much publically about Hyde to refute the media pieces that regurgitate Peter King's draft day story over and over.  Neither have said much about ANY RB on the roster, except the quote from Lynch that I cited in my previous post confirming that he (Lynch) was disappointed in Williams at the start of OTAs.  The regime made it clear from the start that no player (even Navarro Bowman) would be handed anything and that competition would determine the depth chart.  With that policy in place, do you still believe it is wise to read anything into Lynch's and Shanahan's failure to convene a press conference to declare Hyde their choice to lead the backfield in 2017?

 

Actions speak louder than words or, in this instance, silence.  When installing an entirely new offense, practice reps with the first team are gold.  Shanahan gave Hyde 100% of those first team reps.  That speaks more loudly to me than any of the media's speculation whose goal is to improve their click through rates.

 

With the opening of TC today, Shanahan and Lynch will be available repeatedly to the media over the next couple of weeks. Hopefully, we will get some more statements soon about Hyde from the two men who actually run the team.

 

 

Something people have overlooked as well...Lynch DIDN'T have Williams on his draft board.  The GM didn't have Williams on his draft board.  

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1 hour ago, 96mnc said:

 

Something people have overlooked as well...Lynch DIDN'T have Williams on his draft board.  The GM didn't have Williams on his draft board.  

 

Good point.  In a related thought, Williams will absolutely have to earn any snaps he ultimately gets.  Table pounding notwithstanding, this coach and this GM are in no mood to gift anything to any player.  Williams' road to playing time is as steep (if not steeper) than anyone else listed on the depth chart.  The Williams truthers (media included) need to ask themselves how is a guy who quit his team for awhile last season, who showed up to OTAs out-of-shape, and who is only just learning how to blow his nose as a pro, suddenly going to outperform an established pro in the prime of his career, who just posted a Top 12 PPG (PPR) season on the second worst offense in the NFL (the Rams were worse)?  

 

Let's get real,  Let's step into Shanahan's and Lynch's shoes for just a second.  When you are trying to build a winning culture, you don't forsake one of the few proven assets on your roster for no good reason, especially when money isn't a problem and you have not even determined how well (or poorly) that asset fits into the new system you're installing.  Hyde's play will determine his fate.  He'll get a fair shot to succeed.  End of story.     

Edited by Rolling Thunder
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4 hours ago, Winky said:

Dynamic is an arbitrary (almost trolling) word where everyone can continually move the bar on what it means to suit one's side of the argument.

 

All NFL caliber RBs are dynamic as they are world class athletes... some have strengths in certain categories while they have limits in others.

Aggressive, effective, forceful, powerful, productive, electric, energizing, forcible, intense are all synonyms for dynamic... look it up for yourself.

 

Perhaps versatile is a more relevant descriptive to use here.

All-purpose, adaptable, flexible, multi-faceted, mobile, etc...

 

Carlos Hyde had one year of Jim Harbaugh and then Jim Tomisula took the reins and SF went on to become the dumpster fire that it is.

I'll offer that SF's offensive strategy has not been not dynamic or versatile, but Carlos Hyde has carried the water for a couple seasons.

(Let's not sidetrack the point by redirecting to health flags).

 

Dynamic or not, Carlos Hyde has been a good soldier on a bad team and now he gets to work with an accomplished, offensive minded coaching staff.

Based on that alone, I think Hyde's best is yet to come.

If they cut him, Hyde's skillset would net him a host of new uniform options.

 

Alfred Morris is not versatile, yet he ran for 1600 & 1300 yards in his two Shanahan years in Washington...

Did it matter that he wasn't a multi-purpose back and can we agree Carlos Hyde is a better RUNNER than Alfred Morris?

 

Fwiw, beat writers are pigeons hoping to become eagles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your last line for the win...

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Quote

49ers GM John Lynch praised Carlos Hyde on Thursday.

Hyde weighed in at 228 pounds, his lightest weight since high school. "Carlos Hyde looks tremendous," Lynch gushed. "He's really dedicated himself." It's a new tact from the 49ers, who spent much of the offseason openly questioning Hyde's fit in new coach Kyle Shanahan's system. Things have gotten so murky that NFL.com's Gregg Rosenthal passed along on a recent podcast that Hyde could be a surprise release. For now, the 49ers have decided to play nice. Buttering Hyde up and eliciting a strong camp and preseason would make Hyde a more attractive trade target.

 

Literally laughed out loud.

 

No, the 49ers did not spend much of the offseason openly questioning Hyde's fit in the system.  That was YOU, Rotoworld experts, and other fantasy writers, spending much of the offseason openly questioning his fit.  Never once did any of the 49ers doubt his fit.

 

Nothing's gotten murky, except that which you yoursleves made murky.

 

"Buttering Hyde up" to make him a "more attractive trade target."  Taking thin air and turning it into sh*t.

 

Yet another piece of evidence in the mountainous pile of it as to why the opinion editors on this site can't be trusted.  Take news for what it's worth, and do your own thinking, people.

 

Or don't, and keep sending that stock price down and down.

Edited by Lord_Varys
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The only issue i have ever had with Hyde as a fantasy player, has been his fragility issues, not his talent I think he is priced right with upside potential

Edited by dashoe
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