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Ezekiel Elliott 2017 Season Outlook


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Just now, Panthor said:

 

 

he should just serve the time then, he is going to end up serving half of it before there is a decision made, at which point the appeal is just moot, and only the lawyers win

Exactly!  This is not only putting a cloud around him but the the team as a whole. Just get it over with. 

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I'm trying to wrap my head around all the people saying "just roll over and take it."

 

If I'm Zeke, and I actually did it, then yes, I would be inclined to agree with those saying he should just take it. 

 

But to my knowledge (and, let's be real here, everyone else outside the situation's knowledge), he didn't do it. Otherwise this would have been an open and shut case.

 

Why wouldn't you fight something to the bitter end when you knowingly didn't do it?

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Just now, omnom1337 said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around all the people saying "just roll over and take it."

 

If I'm Zeke, and I actually did it, then yes, I would be inclined to agree with those saying he should just take it. 

 

But to my knowledge (and, let's be real here, everyone else outside the situation's knowledge), he didn't do it. Otherwise this would have been an open and shut case.

 

Why wouldn't you fight something to the bitter end when you knowingly didn't do it?

Do we actually know if he did or did not commit the so called crime? 

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1 minute ago, omnom1337 said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around all the people saying "just roll over and take it."

 

If I'm Zeke, and I actually did it, then yes, I would be inclined to agree with those saying he should just take it. 

 

But to my knowledge (and, let's be real here, everyone else outside the situation's knowledge), he didn't do it. Otherwise this would have been an open and shut case.

 

Why wouldn't you fight something to the bitter end when you knowingly didn't do it?

 

 

because at this point he is going to end up serving some of the suspension regardless, for all practical purposes he is suspended and he doesn't have a stay of execution.  they have up to 14 days to hear the case, if someone drags their feet he would have served 2 weeks of the 6 before a decision is made, god forbid they take a week to make a decision now that is 3 weeks and half the suspension.  so whether he did it our not at this point is virtually irrelevant other than for the principle of it all.  but for all practical purpose of avoiding any part of the suspension it is over

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13 minutes ago, omnom1337 said:

Why wouldn't you fight something to the bitter end when you knowingly didn't do it?

This is not how it works in real life. Some people give up fighting although they're innocent. Some people fight till the bitter end even though they're guilty as hell.

 

Often people fight or accept the consequences, and their conscience is an entirely different dimension. "I know I'm innocent and that's all that counts", ever heard that?

 

Case in point: if I'm the Dallas organisation, by this point I don't care about the truth, I just want to get this over with. Take the damn suspension, sit it out and see you back in December, strong as a horse and ready to run.

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8 minutes ago, omnom1337 said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around all the people saying "just roll over and take it."

 

If I'm Zeke, and I actually did it, then yes, I would be inclined to agree with those saying he should just take it. 

 

But to my knowledge (and, let's be real here, everyone else outside the situation's knowledge), he didn't do it. Otherwise this would have been an open and shut case.

 

Why wouldn't you fight something to the bitter end when you knowingly didn't do it?

 

Goodell doesn't care if he did it.  I know that sounds ridiculous but that's the situation.  The NFLPA gave Goodell the ability to suspend players for making the league look bad.  This is what he is doing. 

 

There is an argument that he is doing what is right for the league by punishing players for "putting themselves in these situations", even if they didn't even do anything illegal.  He has a brand to protect.  When he gave Ray Rice only a 2 game suspension for hitting a woman on a viral video, the damage to the brand was tremendous.  Ever since then, he has always erred on the side of over punishing.  It's all about the money.


I don't believe anyone should be punished for something they didn't do, but I understand the optics of this.  There will always be people who believe he did it since nobody really knows except the people directly involved.  He is catering to them.  He wants to make sure their revenue isn't lost.

 

With all the damage that the anthem kneeling is causing, I'm pretty sure the last thing he wants is another Ray Rice uproar if he appears to be lenient on Zeke.

 

The real fight that should happen is the NFLPA taking this power back in the next agreement, but if they do that, they will have to give up something that they want.

 

Zeke isn't going to win here, because the guy with the power (Goodell) doesn't care if he is innocent.  Brady didn't win, neither will he.  He should just take the suspension.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Panthor said:

 

 

because at this point he is going to end up serving some of the suspension regardless, for all practical purposes he is suspended and he doesn't have a stay of execution.  they have up to 14 days to hear the case, if someone drags their feet he would have served 2 weeks of the 6 before a decision is made, god forbid they take a week to make a decision now that is 3 weeks and half the suspension.  so whether he did it our not at this point is virtually irrelevant other than for the principle of it all.  but for all practical purpose of avoiding any part of the suspension it is over

 

This is not accurate. Typically, a party has up to 14 days to file for the re-hearing. A recall of the mandate would allow him to play during this time and during the re-hearing. And if the mandate is not recalled, but a re-hearing is granted... Honestly, I don't know, but I won't pretend like I do. 

 

Also, possibly more importantly, the NFLPA is filing for a TRO in New York soon. The NFL will be using information from the Mazzant proceedings and Graves' dissent as part of their argument. Their case for the TRO is arguably stronger now than it was at the start of all this. If the injunction is granted, he likely plays for the remainder of the season. There is no certainty that he will miss any time yet. 

 

Also, the common assumption by all is that this is the exact same as the Brady case. That just isn't true. I won't go into details but this is a stronger case than Brady's. If he were to ultimately win and had to spend time suspended in the middle of a season, I would imagine this would result in another lawsuit against the NFL due to the irreplaceable harm caused to Zeke. 

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1 minute ago, kp96 said:

 

Goodell doesn't care if he did it.  I know that sounds ridiculous but that's the situation.  The NFLPA gave Goodell the ability to suspend players for making the league look bad.  This is what he is doing. 

 

There is an argument that he is doing what is right for the league by punishing players for "putting themselves in these situations", even if they didn't even do anything illegal.  He has a brand to protect.  When he gave Ray Rice only a 2 game suspension for hitting a woman on a viral video, the damage to the brand was tremendous.  Ever since then, he has always erred on the side of over punishing.  It's all about the money.


I don't believe anyone should be punished for something they didn't do, but I understand the optics of this.  There will always be people who believe he did it since nobody really knows except the people directly involved.  He is catering to them.  He wants to make sure their revenue isn't lost.

 

With all the damage that the anthem kneeling is causing, I'm pretty sure the last thing he wants is another Ray Rice uproar if he appears to be lenient on Zeke.

 

The real fight that should happen is the NFLPA taking this power back in the next agreement, but if they do that, they will have to give up something that they want.

 

Zeke isn't going to win here, because the guy with the power (Goodell) doesn't care if he is innocent.  Brady didn't win, neither will he.  He should just take the suspension.

 

 

 

This post is inaccurate. This is posted time and time again, but the fact is the NFL does not have the power to do anything it wants. Yes, they have much more discretion over what they do compared to a court but there is the notion of "fundamental fairness" that applies to the NFL's actions in disciplinary proceedings. 

 

I'm not saying Zeke wins this thing ultimately, but there is clearly an argument here. Otherwise, you wouldn't have had two judges rule that the NFLPA's case has merit. I mean do we really think that these two judges know less than the Rotoworld forums? Them ruling the way they did says that there is definitely a non-zero chance for Zeke to win in the end. 

 

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33 minutes ago, omnom1337 said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around all the people saying "just roll over and take it."

 

If I'm Zeke, and I actually did it, then yes, I would be inclined to agree with those saying he should just take it. 

 

But to my knowledge (and, let's be real here, everyone else outside the situation's knowledge), he didn't do it. Otherwise this would have been an open and shut case.

 

Why wouldn't you fight something to the bitter end when you knowingly didn't do it?

Lance armstrong

 

OJ Simpson

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50 minutes ago, Panthor said:

 

 

he should just serve the time then, he is going to end up serving half of it before there is a decision made, at which point the appeal is just moot, and only the lawyers win

 

Half of six games is still a pretty big win, especially in a season as short as the NFL.  Not sure how the “well I’ll be serving half might as well serve it all” point you’ve tried to make in a couple of your posts really makes sense.  

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Armstrong admittedly denied that he doped and threw several people under the bus to "prove his innocence". 

 

Well truth came out and look at the disgrace he became.  

 

 

Look at Roger Clemons, Barry Bonds.... 

 

They let their pride get in the way and spend a lot of money and time to hope they get away with the ideal of public perception that they are innocent 

 

Andy Pettite took the high road and admitted guilt a is perceived in a higher light for admitting his fault. 

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1 minute ago, Welcome To My House said:

Armstrong admittedly denied that he doped and threw several people under the bus to "prove his innocence". 

 

Well truth came out and look at the disgrace he became.  

 

 

Look at Roger Clemons, Barry Bonds.... 

 

They let their pride get in the way and spend a lot of money and time to hope they get away with the ideal of public perception that they are innocent 

 

Andy Pettite took the high road and admitted guilt a is perceived in a higher light for admitting his fault. 

You just provided four examples of people who actually did what they were accused of doing. I fail to see how this has any correlation to Zeke, when so far, all signs point to him not actually having committed any crimes.

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8 minutes ago, Random Dude said:

Also, possibly more importantly, the NFLPA is filing for a TRO in New York soon. The NFL will be using information from the Mazzant proceedings and Graves' dissent as part of their argument. Their case for the TRO is arguably stronger now than it was at the start of all this. If the injunction is granted, he likely plays for the remainder of the season. There is no certainty that he will miss any time yet. 

 

Also, the common assumption by all is that this is the exact same as the Brady case. That just isn't true. I won't go into details but this is a stronger case than Brady's. If he were to ultimately win and had to spend time suspended in the middle of a season, I would imagine this would result in another lawsuit against the NFL due to the irreplaceable harm caused to Zeke. 

 

Listen to RD folks.  He knows what he is talking about.  

 

The NFL has broad power under the CBA, but the process that underlies the use of that power has to remain fair.  If there is a serious defect in the process, which is what Zeke says he is prepared to prove, then his suspension won't stand.

 

 Moreover, it does no good to prove a serious defect if you've already served the suspension. Who pays his lost salary?  The team for 6 games he never played?  The NFL?  And what if not participating in 6 games means his team doesn't make the post-season and he loses the chance to compete for a title in 2017?  

 

Whereas it makes no real difference to the NFL  whether he serves a suspension before or after he has had a chance to present his case in full, it sure matters to him.  That is precisely why Mazzant and Graves have seen merit in his position.  The other judges on the 5th Circuit who would have a chance to weigh in if the matter is heard en banc, as Zeke has requested, could very well feel the same way as Mazzant and Graves.  We just don't know that until the mandate is withdrawn and the request for en banc hearing is granted.  

 

We also don't know if the trial judge in NY, who will hear the motion for an injunction if rehearing in the 5th Circuit is not granted, will feel the same way as Mazzant and Graves.  The courts are as much a people business as they are a paper/precedent business.  The same facts and issues can look and feel different to two judges.  We can only wait  until the next judge(s) in the line of legal procedure react.

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22 minutes ago, Random Dude said:

 

This post is inaccurate. This is posted time and time again, but the fact is the NFL does not have the power to do anything it wants. Yes, they have much more discretion over what they do compared to a court but there is the notion of "fundamental fairness" that applies to the NFL's actions in disciplinary proceedings. 

 

I'm not saying Zeke wins this thing ultimately, but there is clearly an argument here. Otherwise, you wouldn't have had two judges rule that the NFLPA's case has merit. I mean do we really think that these two judges know less than the Rotoworld forums? Them ruling the way they did says that there is definitely a non-zero chance for Zeke to win in the end. 

 

 

While this may be true, I've just seen Goodell win despite all logic going against him.  The NFLPA gave him this power and time after time he wins.  I don't see Zeke getting out of it.  He is serving it this season or next.

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Just now, omnom1337 said:

You just provided four examples of people who actually did what they were accused of doing. I fail to see how this has any correlation to Zeke, when so far, all signs point to him not actually having committed any crimes.

And he will be the 5th case 

 

his other off the field issues only add fuel to the fire. 

 

But I am pretty sure the NFL is just on a witch hunt to take down a superstar in their club.  

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, kp96 said:

 

While this may be true, I've just seen Goodell win despite all logic going against him.  The NFLPA gave him this power and time after time he wins.  I don't see Zeke getting out of it.  He is serving it this season or next.

 

Like the 10th toss of a coin that has landed heads 9 times preciously, the odds of tails doesn't change.  This is a different case, with different issues being raised.  Goodell's batting average tells us nothing regarding the likely outcome of Zeke's case.

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59 minutes ago, Rolling Thunder said:

We also don't know if the trial judge in NY, who will hear the motion for an injunction if rehearing in the 5th Circuit is not granted, will feel the same way as Mazzant and Graves.  The courts are as much a people business as they are a paper/precedent business.  The same facts and issues can look and feel different to two judges.  We can only wait  until the next judge(s) in the line of legal procedure react.

 

Very true........

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1 hour ago, Rolling Thunder said:

 

Like the 10th toss of a coin that has landed heads 9 times preciously, the odds of tails doesn't change.  This is a different case, with different issues being raised.  Goodell's batting average tells us nothing regarding the likely outcome of Zeke's case.

 

Huh?  Goodell's batting average tells us plenty.  Just like Tom Brady's rings and Aaron Rodger's stats....they are hard to beat and good at football.  Unless you rank all 32 QBs equally at the beginning of every fantasy season, past performance can be used as an indicator of future success.  It's not the only factor but it says a lot. 

 

Goodell wins over and over again with all sorts of different cases, simply because he has been granted immense power for discipline by the NFLPA and all the lawyering in the world seemingly doesn't help the players.  Is this a different case?  Of course.  And Zeke could win.  But it would be a major outlier if he did.

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1 hour ago, Rolling Thunder said:

 

Like the 10th toss of a coin that has landed heads 9 times preciously, the odds of tails doesn't change.  This is a different case, with different issues being raised.  Goodell's batting average tells us nothing regarding the likely outcome of Zeke's case.

 

This is only true in the case of a fair, random coin toss. The CBA isn't that. If you rolled a 12 ten times in a row with these dice, do you think the next one will be different?

 

loaded-dice.jpg

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Image result for desperate optimist gif

 

It's always ok to hope for the best. Just about anything is possible. But people should be planning accordingly.

 

I don't own Zeke anywhere. But I am making offers for him based the likelihood that he stays suspended. Obviously, owners with a losing record should be more willing to sell.

 

Zeke is currently suspended. That's not likely to change until he's done serving 6 games. Some people may be slow to realize/accept this, which is why there may be a short window here to sell high on him.

 

Since I'm not paid to use this board, I'm not going to write a brief detailing why that's the case. And of course, this is just one legal opinion, based on limited research. So take it or leave it. I've been wrong before and will be again.

 

In any case, here's a Yale law professor who has bothered to write an article about it:

 

 https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-10-13/lesson-for-ezekiel-elliott-the-contract-always-wins

 

(note the part where he says the 5th circuit "panel's reasoning was a marvel of clarity and simplicity", which in lawyerspeak passes for "Mazzant's decision was kinda moronic".)

 

1 hour ago, Rolling Thunder said:

We also don't know if the trial judge in NY, who will hear the motion for an injunction if rehearing in the 5th Circuit is not granted, will feel the same way as Mazzant and Graves.  The courts are as much a people business as they are a paper/precedent business.  The same facts and issues can look and feel different to two judges.  We can only wait  until the next judge(s) in the line of legal procedure react.

 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Mazzant has a personal friendship with one or more of Zeke's attorneys. Sometimes, unfortunately, things are just as simple as that. My guess is the NFL has a team of new york lawyers.

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@Fiveohnine thanks for the post and article. 

 

The author makes a compelling case. Basic contract law. However, can't a case be made that Zeke DID exhaust the appeals process? Once the appeal was complete, and it was clear he didn't get a fair hearing, is the NFL not now also in violation of the CBA? 

 

I'm probably reaching and if so just tell me. 

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^np. the article says that once Zeke lost in arbitration, he was supposed to appeal directly to Goodell, which they decided to skip as pointless, going to district court (near home, not NY) instead. 

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