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7 minutes ago, Lord_Varys said:

 

Zeke and Freeman are young. Not the same injury risk. 

 

Forte and Peterson injuries would certainly open things up for Powell and Ingram.  They're worthy mid round picks. But Henry is better than both, and the situation is better too. 

 

so you are drafting henry over ingram ? 

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2 minutes ago, Flyers_28 said:

so you are drafting henry over ingram ? 

 

Think I  have them in the same tier right now actually.  PPR I'd go with Ingram, but standard Henry. 

Only reason is because with the addition of both Peterson and Kamara, the NO backfield is such a mystery. I could get burnt bad. Versus Tennessee is pretty cut and dry, nothing changed since last year. The 2nd half of last year, Henry was more involved and scoring TDs. If Coleman can produce fantasy RB2 numbers as a real life RB2 last year, then I think Henry can do the same this year as the offense looks to take a leap in the third year under Mariota.  Add on top of all of that Murray's hamstring here, which tend to linger, and the path to fantasy stardom looks just a little bit wider. 

 

My main league is a standard keeper league which might be biasing me. 

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Take it from a physical therapist, I have seen the studies and hamstring injury reoccuring rates are higher than pretty much all other injuries. They are an extremely tricky injury to manage. 

 

Now take into account the scenario.  Demarco Murray injures hamstring, is forced to sit out and watch a promising, 2nd round RB who ate into his workload in his rookie year, dominate the 1st team reps and by all accounts looks amazing while doing so. 

 

Knowing the type of guy Demarco is, do you think maybe he pushes a little too hard to get back on the field and comes back a little bit early? 

 

I think the odds are pretty good. 

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14 minutes ago, Lord_Varys said:

 

Think I  have them in the same tier right now actually.  PPR I'd go with Ingram, but standard Henry. 

 

Only reason is because with the addition of both Peterson and Kamara, the NO backfield is such a mystery. I could get burnt bad. Versus Tennessee is pretty cut and dry, nothing changed since last year. The 2nd half of last year, Henry was more involved and scoring TDs. If Coleman can produce fantasy RB2 numbers as a real life RB2 last year, then I think Henry can do the same this year as the offense looks to take a leap in the third year under Mariota.  Add on top of all of that Murray's hamstring here, which tend to linger, and the path to fantasy stardom looks just a little bit wider. 

 

My main league is a standard keeper league which might be biasing me. 

 

 

just my opinion but that's just crazy to have henry over ingram regardless of the format 

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9 minutes ago, PolarBear said:

Take it from a physical therapist, I have seen the studies and hamstring injury reoccuring rates are higher than pretty much all other injuries. They are an extremely tricky injury to manage. 

 

Now take into account the scenario.  Demarco Murray injures hamstring, is forced to sit out and watch a promising, 2nd round RB who ate into his workload in his rookie year, dominate the 1st team reps and by all accounts looks amazing while doing so. 

 

And so it begins. The more the coaching staff, and the rest of the offense see of Henry on the field, the more difficult it becomes to take him off. Especially for an older RB rehabbing from an injury. Obviously no reason to rush Murray back. By the time Murray is ready to be full-go, Henry may have forced a 50/50 timeshare at least, and it makes perfect sense for everyone involved. Before the season is over, Henry will be the top dog.

Edited by Lamont Sanford
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3 hours ago, Flyers_28 said:

 

you can say the same thing for mcfadden colman powell ingram IF someone goes down 

 

The difference is that Ingram has shown that he is a top-10 RB regardless of their RBBC. He could be top-5 if AP really is finished.

 

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2 hours ago, Flyers_28 said:

 

just my opinion but that's just crazy to have henry over ingram regardless of the format 

 

I'm in the camp that Peterson still has some in the tank and Payton is going to use him as the number 1 runner, and also try to get him some catches. 

 

If that is true, then Ingram is a COP and 3rd down back. Like a Gio Bernard the last couple of years. 

 

If that's the case, then it's not crazy at all. 

 

All depends on how they use Peterson. And again I'm betting that he has enough left in the tank and is the #1 guy. 

 

Also, again, the Tenn backfield is a lot easier to read than NO. I'll take the devil I know over the one I don't. 

Edited by Lord_Varys
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43 minutes ago, Lord_Varys said:

 

I'm in the camp that Peterson still has some in the tank and Payton is going to use him as the number 1 runner, and also try to get him some catches. 

 

If that is true, then Ingram is a COP and 3rd down back. Like a Gio Bernard the last couple of years. 

 

If that's the case, then it's not crazy at all. 

 

All depends on how they use Peterson. And again I'm betting that he has enough left in the tank and is the #1 guy. 

 

Also, again, the Tenn backfield is a lot easier to read than NO. I'll take the devil I know over the one I don't. 

 

if this was true peterson would be drafted before ingram but i don't see that anywhere 

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10 minutes ago, Flyers_28 said:

if this was true peterson would be drafted before ingram but i don't see that anywhere 

 

If we accepted ESPN and Yahoo rankings as law, then the forum wouldn't need to exist.

On FFCalc AP is at 59 overall and Ingram is 71.

I'm in the same camp as @Lord_Varys.

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7 minutes ago, FFCollusion said:

 

If we accepted ESPN and Yahoo rankings as law, then the forum wouldn't need to exist.

On FFCalc AP is at 59 overall and Ingram is 71.

I'm in the same camp as @Lord_Varys.

I hope you're right.  I think there's just so much working against him I don't want a piece of it, at least not when I'm given a choice. Feel free to quote me if he has a 2k season.

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1 minute ago, jbshaw said:

I hope you're right.  I think there's just so much working against him I don't want a piece of it (feel free to quote me if he has a 2k season.)

 

I don't disagree with you.  There is a lot working against him and I'm not sure I want to deal with this backfield either.  The question though, is who do you feel will get the majority of the RB work on the Saints, AP or Ingram?  I believe it's AP.  Whether that translates to fantasy success is a different story entirely.

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6 hours ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

I guess you are not familiar with how much Sean Peyton hates Mark Ingram

 

Yea, Peyton hates Ingram enough to make him a Top 10 RB PPG in 2016 (PPR).  If you feel like opening your eyes, I'll share a link to where the data resides.

Edited by Rolling Thunder
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43 minutes ago, FFCollusion said:

 

If we accepted ESPN and Yahoo rankings as law, then the forum wouldn't need to exist.

On FFCalc AP is at 59 overall and Ingram is 71.

I'm in the same camp as @Lord_Varys.

 

i looked there and AP is 49 actually just my opinion thats high 

im not going to go back and forth in the henry thread about ingram and ap i just said i would take ingram over henry but hey keep pushing ingram down and i'll keep scooping him up 

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2 hours ago, Lord_Varys said:

 

I'm in the camp that Peterson still has some in the tank and Payton is going to use him as the number 1 runner, and also try to get him some catches. 

 

If that is true, then Ingram is a COP and 3rd down back. Like a Gio Bernard the last couple of years. 

 

If that's the case, then it's not crazy at all. 

 

All depends on how they use Peterson. And again I'm betting that he has enough left in the tank and is the #1 guy. 

 

Also, again, the Tenn backfield is a lot easier to read than NO. I'll take the devil I know over the one I don't. 

 

Any discussion of Ingram needs to start with the recognition that he (1) was a Top 10 RB PPG PPR last season, (2) is only in his 7th season, (3) won the Heisman Trophy, and (4) was a Day One draftee.  This is a talented 3 down player squarely in his prime.  

 

Yes, the AP signing complicates things a bit, but if AP isn't AP any more (which I believe), I agree with this analysis (from FF Today):

 

2017 Outlook
 

Mark Ingram finally stayed healthy for a full season and fantasy owners were treated to over 1300 total yards and ten touchdowns on 251 touches (46 were receptions). Most teams would be gearing up for another year riding their big back and his 5.1 YPC but the Saints decided to add Adrian Peterson. Fantasy owners shouldn't be deterred from selecting Ingram, as Peterson's addition also provided a solution for the team's depth as well as insurance for their lead running back. For his part, Ingram has welcomed the opportunity to battle for the starting job and quite frankly offers more stability to the offense. Tim Hightower proved last year, that Ingram needs a breather to get through the year but in doing so he had the best fantasy season of his career by nearly 40 fantasy points.

 

Hightower's line in 15 games while working in with Ingram during Ingram's Top 10 season was 133/548/3 and 26/22/107/1.  How much more work does AP need to do to impact Ingram's Top 10 numbers from last season?  If AP is no longer the transcendent talent we remember (to me, he has already proven he isn't), then I see him as an upgrade over Hightower as Ingram's back up.  Even with more snaps than Hightower received, I don't see a fading AP dropping Ingram to any worse that a RB2.  If AP proves brittle in his 11th season, then Ingram has an excellent opportunity at Top 10 numbers again.

 

I see Kamara as receiving only spot duty while he learns what it is like to be a pro.     

 

   

Edited by Rolling Thunder
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3 hours ago, Flyers_28 said:

 

if this was true peterson would be drafted before ingram but i don't see that anywhere 

Walterfootball took him in RD 3 in a standard mock.  People will catch on and AP will be going higher than he currently is and for reason.  The volume just isn't there for Ingram. 

 

http://walterfootball.com/fantasy2017mock03.php

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3 hours ago, Rolling Thunder said:

 

Yea, Peyton hates Ingram enough to make him a Top 10 RB PPG in 2016 (PPR).  If you feel like opening your eyes, I'll share a link to where the data resides.

 

Nope dont need your link. Dont care what sean peyton has made mark ingram, whatever good Mark has done he has himself to thank for that not Sean Peyton who would never commit to him.

 

Instead favoring Pierre Thomas, Tavaris Cadet, Tim Hightower, now AP and probably Kamara. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

Nope dont need your link. Dont care what sean peyton has made mark ingram, whatever good Mark has done he has himself to thank for that not Sean Peyton who would never commit to him.

 

Instead favoring Pierre Thomas, Tavaris Cadet, Tim Hightower, now AP and probably Kamara. 

 

 

 

ingram had 250 touches hightower 150 but he was favored ? and even cadet ingram caught more balls then he did 

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49 minutes ago, Flyers_28 said:

 

ingram had 250 touches hightower 150 but he was favored ? and even cadet ingram caught more balls then he did 

 

 

Thats good, Ingram has proven himself a capable back despite sean peytons best attempts to hold him back.

 

Ingram is a 3 down workhorse who peyton has never given the reigns to.

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1 hour ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

 

Thats good, Ingram has proven himself a capable back despite sean peytons best attempts to hold him back.

 

Ingram is a 3 down workhorse who peyton has never given the reigns to.

 

He gave him the reigns in 2015 (was the #3 RB after wk 13 before a season ending injury). But admittedly that was because the other timeshare RB (Spiller) wasn't trusted in pass pro. If AP washes out, it could be a similar scenario this season, which makes Ingram a top-10 RB with top-3 upside. 

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On 8/4/2017 at 8:04 PM, PolarBear said:

 

And yet, not one of those guys on that list has the potential to be a top 10 RB option like Henry does. 

Quote it brotha!!!

 

Some people just don't see past the present. But hey, I'm grateful for people like that...it helps me win my leagues  :)

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On 8/5/2017 at 6:28 PM, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

 

Thats good, Ingram has proven himself a capable back despite sean peytons best attempts to hold him back.

 

Ingram is a 3 down workhorse who peyton has never given the reigns to.

If Peyton hated Ingram, why did he give him 250 touches?  If he favored hightower, why did he only get 150?

Do you see how change the goal posts or change to a different narrative each time you're proven wrong?

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17 minutes ago, Felicia's Bye said:

If Peyton hated Ingram, why did he give him 250 touches?  If he favored hightower, why did he only get 150?

 

It's such an odd question, because you're presenting it, as if 250 touches is a good thing.  Do you actually think 250 touches is good for a 3 down back on a top 5 offense is good?  It's not.

251 touches is only 15.6 a game.

Of the top 36 RBs in (PPR) PPG last year... 15.6 ranks Ingram 22nd.

There are 21 running backs in the league who touched the ball more often than Ingram per game.

Why?  Many believe the answer is because Payton/FO/CS dislike Ingram.  I don't know if I believe it, but his usage has been highly questionable the past few years.  I've always assumed it was mostly because he's such a health risk, but at times there do seem to be something else going on in that organization.

 

No one said Payton favored Hightower, the question posed is, why is Tim Hightower even stealing 155 touches from Mark Ingram in the first place?  Don't get me started on the 53 Kuhn got, or 59 Cadet got.  Why did Kuhn, Hightower, and Cadet combine for 14 TD's last year while Ingram was on the sideline? (I don't actually know if he was on the sideline for those TDs)

 

Let me put it this way, Mark Ingram is a highly talented back, 1st round draft pick, Heisman winner, stands a massive 215lbs at only 5'9, with a 3 down skill set, great hands, who has been a top 12 back in back to back years... and in 2016 he averaged one (1) more touch a game than Theo Riddick, Matt Jones, and Terrance West.

 

Ingram has been criminally underused for years, perhaps in an attempt to keep him healthy, I don't know, but regardless, it's clear to me NO either doesn't want to rely on him, or is afraid to.

 

Either way, this much I know:

Even after Mark Ingram's 251 touches, the NO Saints backfield still had another 247 touches, 1,201 yards, 14 Touchdowns, and 285 fantasy points left over.

285 fantasy points would have ranked as the 7th best RB last season overall with 17.8 fantasy points a game ranking 8th.  AP isn't going to get 100% of those touches, but perhaps he's more effective than Hightower rushing the ball?  Perhaps he cuts into Ingram's workload even more than these guys already did?  Perhaps NO simply runs more often and more effectively this year?

 

They got rid of J.Graham, they got rid of B.Cooks, they brought in one of the best Centers in the league, brought in Adrian Peterson, drafted Kamara, have been doing everything in their power to upgrade their defense, and Drew Brees in now 38 years old.  I don't think they want to throw the ball 673 times a year.

I don't know if I'll make the prediction, but it seems like the writing is on the wall for the Saints to dial back the passing, and up their running, if they can beat teams the old fashioned way.  Whether they can execute that or not is another story.  Based on the above, I think there's a lot more to go around in this backfield than I previously realized.  I'll be reassessing the No backfield and probably be moving Ingram up my board a bit.

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1 minute ago, FFCollusion said:

 

It's such an odd question, because you're presenting it, as if 250 touches is a good thing.  Do you actually think 250 touches is good for a 3 down back on a top 5 offense is good?  It's not.

251 touches is only 15.6 a game.

Of the top 36 RBs in (PPR) PPG last year... 15.6 ranks Ingram 22nd.

There are 21 running backs in the league who touched the ball more often than Ingram per game.

Why?  Many believe the answer is because Payton/FO/CS dislike Ingram.  I don't know if I believe it, but his usage has been highly questionable the past few years.  I've always assumed it was mostly because he's such a health risk, but at times there do seem to be something else going on in that organization.

 

No one said Payton favored Hightower, the question posed is, why is Tim Hightower even stealing 155 touches from Mark Ingram in the first place?  Don't get me started on the 53 Kuhn got, or 59 Cadet got.  Why did Kuhn, Hightower, and Cadet combine for 14 TD's last year while Ingram was on the sideline? (I don't actually know if he was on the sideline for those TDs)

 

Let me put it this way, Mark Ingram is a highly talented back, 1st round draft pick, Heisman winner, stands a massive 215lbs at only 5'9, with a 3 down skill set, great hands, who has been a top 12 back in back to back years... and in 2016 he averaged one (1) more touch a game than Theo Riddick, Matt Jones, and Terrance West.

 

Ingram has been criminally underused for years, perhaps in an attempt to keep him healthy, I don't know, but regardless, it's clear to me NO either doesn't want to rely on him, or is afraid to.

 

Either way, this much I know:

Even after Mark Ingram's 251 touches, the NO Saints backfield still had another 247 touches, 1,201 yards, 14 Touchdowns, and 285 fantasy points left over.

285 fantasy points would have ranked as the 7th best RB last season overall with 17.8 fantasy points a game ranking 8th.  AP isn't going to get 100% of those touches, but perhaps he's more effective than Hightower rushing the ball?  Perhaps he cuts into Ingram's workload even more than these guys already did?  Perhaps NO simply runs more often and more effectively this year?

 

They got rid of J.Graham, they got rid of B.Cooks, they brought in one of the best Centers in the league, brought in Adrian Peterson, drafted Kamara, have been doing everything in their power to upgrade their defense, and Drew Brees in now 38 years old.  I don't think they want to throw the ball 673 times a year.

I don't know if I'll make the prediction, but it seems like the writing is on the wall for the Saints to dial back the passing, and up their running, if they can beat teams the old fashioned way.  Whether they can execute that or not is another story.  Based on the above, I think there's a lot more to go around in this backfield than I previously realized.  I'll be reassessing the No backfield and probably be moving Ingram up my board a bit.

I can't read all of this right now, but a cursory glance tells me we actually agree.

 

However, I was responding in the context of Derek Henry's cleats assertions, and he did indeed say that Peyton favored hightower, among many other things.

 

Yours is a nuanced, thoughtful argument.  Read the posts from the user I was responding to, and you'll see that his is not.

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8 hours ago, Felicia's Bye said:

If Peyton hated Ingram, why did he give him 250 touches?  If he favored hightower, why did he only get 150?

Do you see how change the goal posts or change to a different narrative each time you're proven wrong?

 

Lol, Ingram is a 3 down workhorse back who deserves 300+ touches and a conmitment to him from the coaching staff.

 

He will never get that thanks to Sean Peyton.

 

Whatever success Ingram has had in NO is despite Peyton not because of him.

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