HOF or not HOF?

[89Topps 2,711]

I don't think I've seen Justin Verlander mentioned yet.

 

52 career WAR.

8 seasons over 4 WAR (including an 8.4, 7.8, 6.6 & 5.6)

9 seasons with 200+ Ks (including 8 straight)

6 time AS

MVP

ROY

CY (and 3 other top 3 finishes)

 

Not crazy to think if he can put together 3 more pretty good years, get up over 60 WAR, he could be in the conversation.

 

[My Dinner With Andre 5,805]

6 hours ago, parrothead said:

 

Glavine has a benchmark, he also was a 10-time all star, which is more than Cone and Key combined. 

 

Alas that's the paradox. Glavine was a 10 time All-Star in a period when pitchers were literally only evaluated based on their record and ERA.

[azeri98 825]

24 minutes ago, My Dinner With Andre said:

 

Alas that's the paradox. Glavine was a 10 time All-Star in a period when pitchers were literally only evaluated based on their record and ERA.

The way i look at it is, if you had to win one game who would you most like to have pitching that game, out of those 3 it would be Glavine for me.

[Backdoor Slider 8,292]

22 minutes ago, azeri98 said:

The way i look at it is, if you had to win one game who would you most like to have pitching that game, out of those 3 it would be Glavine for me.

Meh. I don't know. If it's a playoff game, Glavine was 14-16 in his postseason career, while Cone (8-3) & Key (5-3) were both above .500. I think we've established those wins and losses mean something. ?

[merlin401 855]

2 hours ago, colepenhagen said:

probably right but his numbers are ridiculous 

 

add in 5 more years of 220 hits and 5 gold gloves (15 total) and he might be in the conversation (but will never know what he could of done age 22-27)

 

No he would never be in the conversation just like Pete Rose isn't in the conversation. Don't get me wrong, he is an immortal player but there is no arguments that could put him near the value of the Ruths, Mays, and Bonds of the world

[azeri98 825]

5 minutes ago, Backdoor Slider said:

Meh. I don't know. If it's a playoff game, Glavine was 14-16 in his postseason career, while Cone (8-3) & Key (5-3) were both above .500. I think we've established those wins and losses mean something. ?

I don't know i live in Toronto and watched both of them in the post season, if you look at strictly at won loss then yes, the post season numbers of era and whip between Key and Glavine are very close, Cone's not as good, they arguement for Glavine is that he did it over a much longer period of time, if he pitched the amount of time the other 2 did he doesn't get in

[Backdoor Slider 8,292]

20 minutes ago, azeri98 said:

I don't know i live in Toronto and watched both of them in the post season, if you look at strictly at won loss then yes, the post season numbers of era and whip between Key and Glavine are very close, Cone's not as good, they arguement for Glavine is that he did it over a much longer period of time, if he pitched the amount of time the other 2 did he doesn't get in

I was just messing around. Glavine was plenty good in the postseason. 

[colepenhagen 3,565]

27 minutes ago, merlin401 said:

 

No he would never be in the conversation just like Pete Rose isn't in the conversation. Don't get me wrong, he is an immortal player but there is no arguments that could put him near the value of the Ruths, Mays, and Bonds of the world

more gold than mays

more hits than pete

top 11 all time in sb

 

to each his own but that he would be up there in the all time greats for me

you could make a case but then again i am not really all that impressed with anything that the oldtimes did as they played against trash competition but thats for another thread and another time (please dont respond to this)

[Low and Away 1,574]

48 minutes ago, Backdoor Slider said:

Meh. I don't know. If it's a playoff game, Glavine was 14-16 in his postseason career, while Cone (8-3) & Key (5-3) were both above .500. I think we've established those wins and losses mean something. ?

And if you use playoffs to determine where does Kershaw fit in? Playoff records would be sort of a joke in being such a small sample size.

[agk47 45]

5 hours ago, colepenhagen said:

probably right but his numbers are ridiculous 

 

add in 5 more years of 220 hits and 5 gold gloves (15 total) and he might be in the conversation (but will never know what he could of done age 22-27)

 

Exactly and he still got to 3000 hits.

 

easily the greatest hitter I have ever seen play the game.  

 

Exceptional at every aspect of the game, including being an exceptional team mate, leader, his situational awareness, best wrists I've ever seen, his d was perfect........

 

 

i don't want to get into an arguement over who is better at reading numbers off a spreadsheet, but taking into account the total package, find me a better all around talent in the history of the game?

 

....maybe Willy Mayes?

 

 

also I missed miggy, he's a lock for the hall

 

 

cheers!

Edited August 3, 2017 by agk47

[89Topps 2,711]

4 minutes ago, agk47 said:

 

Exactly and he still got to 3000 hits.

 

easily the greatest hitter I have ever seen play the game.  

 

Exceptional at every aspect of the game, including being an exceptional team mate, leader, his situational awareness, best wrists I've ever seen, his d was perfect........

 

 

i don't want to get into an arguement over who is better at reading numbers off a spreadsheet, but taking into account the total package, find me a better all around talent in the history of the game?

 

....maybe Willy Mayes?

 

 

also I missed miggy, he's a lock for the hall

 

 

cheers!

 

Exceptional teammate and leader?  This is Ichiro you're taking about?

[Backdoor Slider 8,292]

5 minutes ago, agk47 said:

 

Exactly and he still got to 3000 hits.

 

easily the greatest hitter I have ever seen play the game.  

 

Exceptional at every aspect of the game, including being an exceptional team mate, leader, his situational awareness, best wrists I've ever seen, his d was perfect........

 

[Rabbit Maranville 1,366]

you guys aren't giving ichiro enuf credit he also had tremendous elbows and his ankles are easily top 5 all time

[agk47 45]

...seriously, real world, whose better?  

 

...and if you say jeter or a rod I puke a little in my mouth. 

 

 

Guys like mantle maris DiMaggio Ruth and Cobb don't count, none of us have seen them play and it was obviously another era. 

[Jashduke 10]

8 hours ago, 89Topps said:

I don't think I've seen Justin Verlander mentioned yet.

 

52 career WAR.

8 seasons over 4 WAR (including an 8.4, 7.8, 6.6 & 5.6)

9 seasons with 200+ Ks (including 8 straight)

6 time AS

MVP

ROY

CY (and 3 other top 3 finishes)

 

Not crazy to think if he can put together 3 more pretty good years, get up over 60 WAR, he could be in the conversation.

 

*6 seasons with 200+ Ks

 

Verlander is interesting because he had a solid peak until age 30, dropped off (although not as badly as I remember the media used to claim), but bounced back last year and came in 2nd in CY Young voting. He has a good chance to reach 3000 Ks too. 

[verycoolnin 330]

How is Mike Mussina not in the HOF?  270-153, 3.68 ERA in the heart of the steroid era in the AL East. 
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Mike-Mussina

[Z06vette 1,519]

4 hours ago, agk47 said:

 

Exactly and he still got to 3000 hits.

 

easily the greatest hitter I have ever seen play the game.  

 

Exceptional at every aspect of the game, including being an exceptional team mate, leader, his situational awareness, best wrists I've ever seen, his d was perfect........

 

 

i don't want to get into an arguement over who is better at reading numbers off a spreadsheet, but taking into account the total package, find me a better all around talent in the history of the game?

 

....maybe Willy Mayes?

 

 

also I missed miggy, he's a lock for the hall

 

 

cheers!

In his prime, many scouts would agree.

[Fuzzy_Slippers 3,941]

 

He even shakes off the catcher.

[handyandy86 2,451]

19 hours ago, Backdoor Slider said:

@handyandy86

I get what you're saying. But the point is that Glavine pitched how he did, outside of the number of wins. For example, if Key or Cone end up on the Braves, it is likely that they rack up that number of wins. That's why you look at the more meaningful stats. So in essence, you're awarding one guy for the team he was on, & punishing guys for being on bad teams. This is essentially what happened to Tim Raines for years, before a few guys started really promoting his numbers in articles and on twitter. 

As far as longevity is concerned, "crafty lefties" always stay around longer than hard throwing RHP. See: Jamie Moyer. He's actually another great example of the longevity who ALMOST got to 300 wins. 

If you had to nominate one SP into the HOF of these 2, which would it be?

Jamie Moyer- 269 Wins, Two 20 win seasons, 4.25 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, 48.2 fWAR

Kevin Brown- 211 Wins (Had a 1.89 ERA in 233 IP one season and only ended with 17 wins!?) 3.28 ERA, 1.22 WHIP, 76.5 fWAR

 

 

Not trying to beat a dead horse, but I really don't agree Key or Cone would have had the same number of wins if only they played on the Braves.  They just didn't stay effective / relevant long enough.  We already saw that Key and Cone both actually had better win-loss% than Glavine, so if we're using the argument that wins got Glavine into the HOF and wins are a useless stat, then if anything Key and Cone were both helped more by wins in their legacy than Glavine (since both have higher win%).  The whole thing is that Glavine was effective over a lot longer time period, which "crafty lefty" or not, is still an impressive feat.

 

I also kind of get what you're saying with Moyer and Brown, but it's also not really a fair reflection - Glavine was much better than Moyer, and the gap between Brown and Moyer is huge in ratios, whereas the gap between Glavine and Key and Cone in ratios is essentially non-existent.  I don't think that 300 wins gets you to the HOF no matter how you get there, but I think when you add 300 wins + high end ratios + great WAR + 2 Cy Young's, that's what gets Glavine there so easily.  

 

Also for argument's sake, Moyer had a career WAR of 50.2 over 25 seasons, so just about 2 WAR per season.  Glavine had 81.5 WAR over 22 seasons, so about 3.7 WAR per season.  Brown had 68.5 WAR over 19 seasons for an average of about 3.6 WAR per season.  I know you're just using Moyer as hyperbole to show that win totals don't necessarily matter, but it doesn't take away that Glavine averaged a higher WAR per year for a much longer time period than those not in the HOF.

[shakestreet 4,103]

7 hours ago, verycoolnin said:

How is Mike Mussina not in the HOF?  270-153, 3.68 ERA in the heart of the steroid era in the AL East. 
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Mike-Mussina

Being a Yankee fan I was shocked when Moose told us all he was retiring after that great '08 season He wins twenty games and retires that is unheard off.

 

the "only" reason he didn't win 300 games

[Fiveohnine 1,505]

^well, yeah. You do have to actually play your way into the HOF.

[Backdoor Slider 8,292]

For those interested, pitcher WAR is much different between both fangraphs & baseball reference. Baseball reference uses earned runs given up, while fangraphs uses FIP. I believe both have their merits (earned runs measures historically what actually happened, while FIP might be a better indicator of who the pitcher was, taking out defense, luck, etc.). To highlight the difference, Glavine has a 66.9 WAR on Fangraphs and Baseball Reference has Glavine at 74 WAR. 

 

Also, Baseball Reference has the JAWs metric which factors in WAR  and 7 year peak to create a HOF value. 

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml

 

This is pitcher's only. Mussina comes in at 28 overall. Glavine at 30. 

 

You can also search by position for hitters. Another guy mentioned was Yadier Molina, who comes in as 29th all time catcher, behind guys like Russell Martin & Jason Kendall. Joe Mauer is 7th ranked C all time. 

 

Just more fuel for the debates. Hope some find this interesting. 

[merlin401 855]

11 hours ago, agk47 said:

...seriously, real world, whose better?  

 

...and if you say jeter or a rod I puke a little in my mouth. 

 

 

Guys like mantle maris DiMaggio Ruth and Cobb don't count, none of us have seen them play and it was obviously another era. 

 

Bonds and Trout are in another conversation where ichiro simply does not belong. 

 

Griffey and Pujols I think are both clearly better. Arod's career is better but his issues bump him down from this circle I think.

 

then the next level is where I start talking about ichiro. Among the people like chipper jones, who are no doubt first ballot hall of famers and inner circle guys. But the HOF is like a goddamn nesting doll with circles, and ichiro just isn't good enough to be in the innermost ones 

[handyandy86 2,451]

I have to agree with those advocating for Mussina to get in.  He seems to be a bit overlooked, probably a combination of not being a high-K guy, playing his best years on a usually non-contending team, and just being over-shadowed by some other great pitchers in the same generation.  

 

On the surface when you look at his lack of CY awards and only 5 ASG appearances, along with the K-rate and lack of elite seasons, I can see why voters might not be rushing to put in a ballot for him.  But hopefully as WAR and JAWs metrics are more accepted people will realize how highly Mussina ranks.  

 

As others have mentioned he pitched his whole career in the AL East, and won a lot of games on some less-than-great Orioles teams.  When he finally did go to New York he was kind of over-shadowed by guys like Clemens and Yankee-fan-fave Pettitte, not to mention his best years were behind him.  I think if he had been on a contender in the early-90's he would have gotten a lot more accolades.  

 

Also I know we hardly ever see it mentioned regarding pitchers, but Mussina did also win 7 Gold Gloves.  I know pitchers don't really do a whole lot of fielding, but if a positional player had 7 GG's and a comparably great stat line they'd be a shoe-in for the HOF.  I think this is also really over-looked and shows how good of an all-around ball player and athlete Mussina was.

[agk47 45]

regarding mussina, didnt he have a rep for being a huge prick behind the scenes.

 

I vaguely remember the him have a toxic relationship with the media heads-- i wonder if its coming back to bite him now.

 

 

Totally agree with the sentiment, Mussina is an easy hof'er, strange how he's been overlooked.

 

...without checking numbers, how far behind mike mussina would a guy like roy oswalt be on the pecking order?   ... he seemed similarly underappreciated; although I doubt he had the counting stats.......

 

fun convo, love hearing everyones opinions!