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August Closer Thread 2017


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2 hours ago, miasma16 said:

This has already been discussed also, and is wrong to boot. Check his advanced stats. He's a closer. He's a must-own player. This isn't up for debate.

 

This is a very broad reaching statement making several assumptions about league settings and team composition.

 

I picked up Treinen in one league where I am 3rd in Saves.  But I also picked up Brad Hand.  I have Hand, Herrera, Wade Davis and Justin Wilson (now Shane Greene).  I am a comfortable distance ahead of the 4th place in Saves team who only has 2 closers right now.  However I am close to 4 teams in ERA and WHIP.  Treinen could be the difference between 3rd and 1st place and an extra 2 points but he could also blow up my ERA and WHIP and easily cost me more than 2 points.

 

According to Yahoo's player rater, some closers rank far behind some of the top setup men.  Suggests to me that ERA and WHIP must always be balanced out.

Edited by KingJoffrey
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3 hours ago, KingJoffrey said:

 

It was a rhetorical question.  

 

Anyways, if the thread is about who is going to close in Oakland, a swift kick in the pants to remind people that Treinen is a lousy pitcher is rather pertinent, is it not?

 

 

You're basing him being "lousy" on less than one half of one season?   He was very good all last season and has been very good since the trade to Oakland

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4 minutes ago, rich22 said:

 

 

You're basing him being "lousy" on less than one half of one season?   He was very good all last season and has been very good since the trade to Oakland

 

His FIP wasn't very good last season.  Of course his FIP this year is close to his FIP last year of around 3.60 which is ok.  It hardly screams "elite closer".  The K/BB ratio was pretty bad at around 2 so the FIP being good is dependent upon keeping his HR's down which is doable, especially in Oakland.  But I think some of that nifty GB% and low HR rate was due to pitching against some bad NL East offenses..the Braves, Phillies, Marlins all kind of stunk last year.  

 

Anyways just kind of have a hunch he's going to encounter some problems.  He shut down the Angels but hey they are the Angels.  Lets see him close out the Astros. 

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8 minutes ago, KingJoffrey said:

 

His FIP wasn't very good last season.  Of course his FIP this year is close to his FIP last year of around 3.60 which is ok.  It hardly screams "elite closer".  The K/BB ratio was pretty bad at around 2 so the FIP being good is dependent upon keeping his HR's down which is doable, especially in Oakland.  But I think some of that nifty GB% and low HR rate was due to pitching against some bad NL East offenses..the Braves, Phillies, Marlins all kind of stunk last year.  

 

Anyways just kind of have a hunch he's going to encounter some problems.  He shut down the Angels but hey they are the Angels.  Lets see him close out the Astros. 

Nobody cares about your team or your hunches. He's not lousy and he's a must-own player. Stop derailing the thread. 

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37 minutes ago, KingJoffrey said:

 

His FIP wasn't very good last season.  Of course his FIP this year is close to his FIP last year of around 3.60 which is ok.  It hardly screams "elite closer".  The K/BB ratio was pretty bad at around 2 so the FIP being good is dependent upon keeping his HR's down which is doable, especially in Oakland.  But I think some of that nifty GB% and low HR rate was due to pitching against some bad NL East offenses..the Braves, Phillies, Marlins all kind of stunk last year.  

 

Anyways just kind of have a hunch he's going to encounter some problems.  He shut down the Angels but hey they are the Angels.  Lets see him close out the Astros. 

 

 

There is a very large gap between "lousy" and "elite".   I commented on you saying he is "lousy".  He is neither "lousy" nor "elite".  He, should be,  a serviceable closer that can help many fantasy teams down the stretch

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4 hours ago, miasma16 said:

This has already been discussed also, and is wrong to boot. Check his advanced stats. He's a closer. He's a must-own player. This isn't up for debate.

 

Debate is what we do here. As long as we back up our debate with facts it's okay. @KingJoffrey brought up his team as a reminder that not all of us play in 12 team or 14 team leagues or with the normal 5x5 stat cats. Sometimes the problem in this thread is that we want to stamp "that's a fact" on our thoughts with a black or white, yes or no certainty. I think we are doing fine in here, this thread is a super tight family and sometimes one of us wants the window open and one of us wants it closed. But what we all want is our closers to stay closers and if not we want to know who's up next. 

 

Thanks to all of you I've been able to replace closers on the fly. It's not easy, sometimes I roster too many and it hurts my offense and SPs, but without you folks, I couldn't do it at all. 

 

Thanks everyone. 

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22 minutes ago, WaKe21334 said:

Saw Perkins will be back this week. Do we think he will likely take over the closer role at some point?

 

The honest answer is who knows, but based on experience they probably wouldn't mind seeing him close a game before the end of the year, so maybe one or two saves max. We'll know better after seeing him pitch in the 6th and 7th innings when he comes back. 

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2 hours ago, BMcP said:

Was Dyson unavailable today?

 

Sort of... I was watching the game on the Giants feed and they said Bochy had indicated they would prefer to avoid Dyson, but that he'd be available in case of emergency.  After Suarez allowed a baserunner in the 9th, Dyson did momentarily get up and start to get loose, but ultimately, they didn't need him.

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41 minutes ago, BMcP said:

What was wrong with the King's post?  He's just sharing an opinion - I'm not sure I even noticed a mention of his team.

 

He mentioned his team in an earlier post on this page. 

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44 minutes ago, miasma16 said:

Nobody cares about your team or your hunches. He's not lousy and he's a must-own player. Stop derailing the thread. 

 

If he's a "must own" player then why is he only owned in 26% of Yahoo Leagues?

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4 minutes ago, lipitorkid said:

 

Debate is what we do here. As long as we back up our debate with facts it's okay. @KingJoffrey brought up his team as a reminder that not all of us play in 12 team or 14 team leagues or with the normal 5x5 stat cats. Sometimes the problem in this thread is that we want to stamp "that's a fact" on our thoughts with a black or white, yes or no certainty. I think we are doing fine in here, this thread is a super tight family and sometimes one of us wants the window open and one of us wants it closed. But what we all want is our closers to stay closers and if not we want to know who's up next. 

 

Thanks to all of you I've been able to replace closers on the fly. It's not easy, sometimes I roster too many and it hurts my offense and SPs, but without you folks, I couldn't do it at all. 

 

Thanks everyone. 

He's misapplying statistics to say that Treinen has been bad, because he hasn't done his homework. It's literally the exact same mistake I made with the exact same player. He hasn't been lousy or anything close to it. It is black and white, everyone in this thread is in a league that counts saves as a stat, otherwise they wouldn't be here. He's performed as a perfectly average reliever and he's Oakland's closer. If people want to post their opinions they should hold themselves to a higher standard. Saying you have a hunch that he'll struggle against the best offense in baseball doesn't do anybody any good, and certainly isn't something that needs to be defended. This thread is hard enough to keep up with, without 2 pages of sidebars to read through. 

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Just now, KingJoffrey said:

 

If he's a "must own" player then why is he only owned in 26% of Yahoo Leagues?

Yahoo Ownership ratings don't mean much this late in the year.

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1 minute ago, Flyman75 said:

 

He mentioned his team in an earlier post on this page. 

 

It was just an example of a situation where you may not want to own Treinen.

 

I don't believe this has been talked about much at all.... owning a closer for the chance of getting more saves ...at the expense of all other stats.  Then of course, proving that the damage to ERA and WHIP is justified by the extra saves.

 

Please post a link to the thread.

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Just now, KingJoffrey said:

 

It was just an example of a situation where you may not want to own Treinen.

 

I don't believe this has been talked about much at all.... owning a closer for the chance of getting more saves ...at the expense of all other stats.  Then of course, proving that the damage to ERA and WHIP is justified by the extra saves.

 

Please post a link to the thread.

His metrics are perfectly average so your argument makes literally no sense. 

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2 minutes ago, miasma16 said:

He's misapplying statistics to say that Treinen has been bad, because he hasn't done his homework. It's literally the exact same mistake I made with the exact same player. He hasn't been lousy or anything close to it. It is black and white, everyone in this thread is in a league that counts saves as a stat, otherwise they wouldn't be here. He's performed as a perfectly average reliever and he's Oakland's closer. If people want to post their opinions they should hold themselves to a higher standard. Saying you have a hunch that he'll struggle against the best offense in baseball doesn't do anybody any good, and certainly isn't something that needs to be defended. This thread is hard enough to keep up with, without 2 pages of sidebars to read through. 

 

It was not what I was arguing.  I never argued that he didn't have the closer job.  

 

I was arguing that his ownership may not be worth the risk.  That is all.  It is not such a controversial statement.

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2 minutes ago, KingJoffrey said:

 

It was just an example of a situation where you may not want to own Treinen.

 

I don't believe this has been talked about much at all.... owning a closer for the chance of getting more saves ...at the expense of all other stats.  Then of course, proving that the damage to ERA and WHIP is justified by the extra saves.

 

Please post a link to the thread.

 

Post a link to what thread? I was just answering BMcP with a factual statement. 

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Just now, KingJoffrey said:

 

It was not what I was arguing.  I never argued that he didn't have the closer job.  

 

I was arguing that his ownership may not be worth the risk.  That is all.  It is not such a controversial statement.

It's not controversial at all, as everyone else in this thread knows. Closers need to be owned, especially when they're average or better pitchers. 

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I'm not at all clear on why forum members should be prohibited from stating that a particular player will not continue performing at a certain level.  It seems like that's exactly the type of discussion we should be fostering - what makes you think his performance over the last two-three innings will be sustainable, when viewed in the context of his entire season?

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Just now, BMcP said:

I'm not at all clear on why forum members should be prohibited from stating that a particular player will not continue performing at a certain level.

Treinen has not been lousy. If he had been, Joffrey would support his opinion with facts. Obviously, he cannot. 

 

Are you advocating than anybody should be allowed to say that players are lousy when, uh, they have been nowhere near lousy? Because you should go advocate something else. 

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4 minutes ago, miasma16 said:

It's not controversial at all, as everyone else in this thread knows. Closers need to be owned, especially when they're average or better pitchers. 

 

But if he doesn't pitch well enough to keep the job..he's not going to be closing.  And he's going to hurt your team in the meantime.

 

Look at how much Budd Norris' ownership rate has gone down in the padt 2 weeks despite him not losing the closer's job.

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