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St. Louis Cardinals 2018 Outlook


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But Hicks was getting to meetings on time and wasn't dogging it.  That's the point.  Yeah be hard on someone like Yasil Puig but not on rookies that are doing their best.  Mentor them, not haze them. 

Not that it often matters a ton but what has Bud Norris done in this game to haze anyway?  Who the hell is Bud Norris to be pushing anyone?  Push them to what?  His mediocre career path?  Congrats dud

A trade for Machado doesn't make sense for the Cards.   1) He would almost certainly not be coming back.   2) This team arguably isn't good enough to be sticking in all the chips i

Just now, jahweedum said:

Why aren't the Cardinals ever mentioned when it comes to Machado? They have to many OFs and SPs, are competing, and seen to have plenty of pieces to trade

Never thought of this. If they are in on Donaldson, why not Machado? 

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24 minutes ago, roscobangs said:

Never thought of this. If they are in on Donaldson, why not Machado? 

They were mentioned in a rotoworld blurb not too long ago as possible suitors. It was the one that mentioned the Cubs making Manny their top summer trade target. 

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Locally there’s Machado talk. Whenever a sports show has a guest like Heyman etc on they always bring up Machado. STL Cards forums

 

As a Cards fan I don’t think the trade for him, make him fall in love with the “Best MLB city/fans”, and sign him works anymore.

(Did with McGwire, Rolen, Holliday years ago)

 

It’s not a sexy team, the city is blah. 

I personally wouldn’t wanna rent him for 3 months, lose a Weaver/Flaherty/Hicks/Kelly/O’Neil, etc

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1 hour ago, Gumbo_Ghost said:

Also feels very un-Cardinal to give him a 7 year $210M deal this offseason

(Granted they were in on Stanton)

 

I wouldn't do anything but rent him anyway - but you guys have lots of pieces you could potentially rearrange and possibly ship.  

 

It's all about what Baltimore wants really and who they have on their lists.  Even without Wainwright you guys basically have one to many SPs already no?

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A trade for Machado doesn't make sense for the Cards.

 

1) He would almost certainly not be coming back.

 

2) This team arguably isn't good enough to be sticking in all the chips in to compete this year.

 

3) Baltimore is going to try to get one of Weaver, Reyes or Flaherty, and I don't think three months of Manny is worth that, especially coupled with #2.

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2 minutes ago, Philoumenos said:

A trade for Machado doesn't make sense for the Cards.

 

1) He would almost certainly not be coming back.

 

2) This team arguably isn't good enough to be sticking in all the chips in to compete this year.

 

3) Baltimore is going to try to get one of Weaver, Reyes or Flaherty, and I don't think three months of Manny is worth that, especially coupled with #2.

Easier said than done. I'm sure Holland will be dominant come downt the stretch. Rotation is nasty (if healthy).

 

What do they lack? An elite bat.

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Just now, ZChronicNebula said:

Easier said than done. I'm sure Holland will be dominant come downt the stretch. Rotation is nasty (if healthy).

 

What do they lack? An elite bat.

Why are you sure Holland will be dominant? He's been terrible since last July, and was a godawful signing.

 

Yes, the rotation is healthy, and yes they need an elite bat. But I don't see the sense in pushing in the chips to get a rental elite bat. Either try to sign one of the elite bats this offseason, or make a trade then for someone with more years on his deal. I don't see the sense in burning a stud like Flaherty or Reyes just to go all in on the 2018 iteration of this team.

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3 minutes ago, Philoumenos said:

Why are you sure Holland will be dominant? He's been terrible since last July, and was a godawful signing.

 

Yes, the rotation is healthy, and yes they need an elite bat. But I don't see the sense in pushing in the chips to get a rental elite bat. Either try to sign one of the elite bats this offseason, or make a trade then for someone with more years on his deal. I don't see the sense in burning a stud like Flaherty or Reyes just to go all in on the 2018 iteration of this team.

I could see Waino emerging out of the pen & being the force to "carry" them to the promise land. Anything can happen. Nobody knows. Nats always chock. So does Kershaw. I'd rather see them win a chip now then compared to waiting & things not come together. They have the maturity. Act now. 

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Cardinals usually go after guys with multiple years still left on their contract, and rarely do “rentals”, i.e., Ozuna, Duke, Gyorko, Moss, Lackey, etc. I can’t actually remember the last time they had a rental, other than Heyward which was a full year. However, I don’t think Machado is out of the question. They were interested in the off-season and made an offer. Orioles wanted 2 top pitching prospects and more. Their owner Angelos is kind of an idiot as he interferes with the operations of the team, and was reluctant to lower the asking price so I can see it be a hefty price for Machado. Time will tell. As a cards fan I hope they can pull it off. 

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27 minutes ago, ZChronicNebula said:

I could see Waino emerging out of the pen & being the force to "carry" them to the promise land. Anything can happen. Nobody knows. Nats always chock. So does Kershaw. I'd rather see them win a chip now then compared to waiting & things not come together. They have the maturity. Act now. 

I really can't see Waino pitching effectively ever again myself. 

 

If we're talking about SPs in RP situations though, I'd be perfectly happy seeing the Cardinals' overstuffed rotation turned into a position of strength with one of Flaherty, Reyes, Weaver becoming a shutdown long(er) relief guy maybe a la Andrew Miller or Josh Hader.

 

As for "winning a chip now," I still don't agree with the basic premise, at least not in 2018. The Orioles are going to ask for way too much for Manny, and that will in turn result in the team sapping their longterm position of strength (pitching), at the expense of a one-year run. That seems insanely shortsighted to me when the team isn't an elite one right now. If this were a Cubs 2016 situation where you're an elite club just looking for the last piece to carry you over the hump (in that case Chapman), I can see the case for going all in (and I think you could make an argument against what the Cubs did then, even if the ultimate result was what they wanted).

 

In the Cardinals situation where they're currently a very good, but not a seemingly elite club, I don't think I'd want to see them push all the chips in.

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I liked all these comments - cause that's why I asked!

 

Machado fits perfectly in this lineup and in their weak spots - he won't stay - that's true too, however - if Holland if a RP is the weak spot as well, that even easier to address

 

Waino in a RP/Veteran role makes sense - don't trade away the future - but right now, the Cards have too many SPs to begin with (I assume they have another one or two in development as well)

 

Play to win NOW without forfeiting the future - don't overpay - but at least throw a legit hat into the ring

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56 minutes ago, jahweedum said:

I liked all these comments - cause that's why I asked!

 

Machado fits perfectly in this lineup and in their weak spots - he won't stay - that's true too, however - if Holland if a RP is the weak spot as well, that even easier to address

 

Waino in a RP/Veteran role makes sense - don't trade away the future - but right now, the Cards have too many SPs to begin with (I assume they have another one or two in development as well)

 

Play to win NOW without forfeiting the future - don't overpay - but at least throw a legit hat into the ring

 

Who?

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Personally, I don't think Holland will be good this year... They released Broxton around this time last year with very similar/better numbers. I'm not saying they'll release Holland, but he just looks finished.

 

Wainwright out of the pen is an idea that Cards fans have kicked around for a few years now, but like Holland he seems done. He has no fastball, I don't want Wainwright coming in throwing 88 for an inning... Not when they have other better options in the pen.

 

As far as having too many SPs, they do have a ton.

Guys that aren't names non-Cards fans probably know like

Dakota Hudson, 1st rounder, 17-7 2.79 ERA

Ryan Helsley, 5th rounder, 26-8, 2.48 ERA

Austin Gomber, 4th rounder, 36-23, 2.99 ERA

 

Jordan Hicks was a starter in the minor leagues as well...

 

So you have those guys who IDK their potential, but seemingly could be trade-bait or back-end guys.

Carlos, Wacha, Weaver, Flaherty, Reyes, Mikolas, Wainwright (:rolleyes:), John Gant

 

The organization has a ton of pitching.

 

But like some have said, Machado most likely isn't going to stay in STL. So if the want someone not named Reyes/Flaherty/Weaver sure, otherwise I'd pass.

If Ozuna was 2017 Ozuna and Carpenter was 2015-16 Carpenter with this pitching I'd go all-in with Machado

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9 hours ago, Gumbo_Ghost said:

Also feels very un-Cardinal to give him a 7 year $210M deal this offseason

(Granted they were in on Stanton)

Considering machado will command a $300+ mil contracts I could see the cards offering $210 mil lol!

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8 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

 

Who?

If you're asking about who we have in development, Dakota Hudson is pretty damn good, as is Ryan Helsley. There are others, but those are probably the two brightest pitching sparks left in the system right now.

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On 5/17/2018 at 8:42 PM, Caelum said:

Holy cow is their offense dead since they lost Molina (and, well, kinda before that too). I’m a fan but I’ll be streaming any SP I can against them. So many rally killers in that lineup right now. Unless Carp, Fowler and Ozuna get back somewhere near what they were before. Pham’s been great, Martinez, DeJong and Gyorko have just been OK, and that’s about it right now.

Fowler is the immovable albatross.  O'Neill should be taking his ABs or at least splitting between him and 'Zuna.  Unfortunately baseball owners and GMs are extremely insistent on proving a guy who is struggling is a good investment.  Sometimes they need to take their lumps.

 

Ozuna will get going but it's definitely time for another offensive spark.

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4 hours ago, Philoumenos said:

If you're asking about who we have in development, Dakota Hudson is pretty damn good, as is Ryan Helsley. There are others, but those are probably the two brightest pitching sparks left in the system right now.

 

Hudson is absolutely a very good prospect and is the likely guy to be moved if you guys make a deal. 

 

In a perfect world what position would you want to upgrade?

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13 hours ago, jahweedum said:

 

Weaver, Mikolas, Flaherty, Wacha, Reyes, Cmart = 6? Waino = 7?

 

Those are NOT prospects anymore.  You said prospects in development and that was what I was asking about.  Thanks to Philoumenos for reminding me of Dakota Hudson though.  But he alone would not be enough for a Manny rental.  They would want him plus young players like Tyler O'Neil and/or Paul Dejong (DL now but O's not going anywhere and he is only 24 I think and he is a SS which is where Manny wants to play now saying he doesn't want to go back to 3B) as well as some lesser prospects.

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1 hour ago, 96mnc said:

 

Hudson is absolutely a very good prospect and is the likely guy to be moved if you guys make a deal. 

 

In a perfect world what position would you want to upgrade?

If I could choose anything? It'd depend on how long we're upgrading the position I guess.

 

Longterm, I'd want a good 3B that will be around for a while (read: not a Manny-esque rental).

 

If we're talking a short-term upgrade though, like "pushing the chips in for 2018" (which I'm still pretty vehemently against unless they grow a decent lead in the division), I guess I wouldn't be opposed to a super-elite bullpen arm if that's available, since that's the team's weakest area. Top 10 starting corp compared to a Bottom 5 relieving corp.

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