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Points vs Roto vs Category leagues


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Didnt really think this would belong in the AC forums because its pretty much a general FB topic

But what are peoples opinions on the scoring types. Im personally a H2H 9 cat TO's guy (Perfect balance) and I can see myself playing roto as its interesting but i feel the H2H gives you more active involvement per week.
I personally despise points leagues, I feel theyre the beginners way out and so basic in terms of "Player A scores more than player B" where i actually like the balanced construction of a team among multiple categories.
But I am open to conversation and to hear peoples thoughts on all types?

 

I dont see why people overcomplicate with 10 categories or making the 9th a double double category instead of TO's unless the leage manager has a hard-on for guys like westbrook.

8 Cat is good for learning your way onto a 9 cat league

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9- Cat Roto is the ultimate in my world..  it is literally a science. The 14 team league that I am in has been around since 2002. The league has evolved to the point that every player is almost perfectly priced in the draft and day to day. You can't get over on anyone. The real fun is cruncing the numbers all day and tweaking them to see if you will get the deisred point total to win the league. Am I averaging enough assists,steals , boards per game to get me to a 10+ in that specific category? Its amazing and gets better and better ever year. When we first started, if your team averaged 1.1 threes a game over the entire season you were guaranteed a 10+ in treys. In today's NBA and world your team needs to average 1.5 to get a 10+..   it just keeps evolvling and evolving and you need to constantlly tweak your algorithms based off your player's projections to get to the prize..

 

I can go on and on....

 

Long live 9-CAT ROTO!!

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So this kind of breaks down to two comparisons, roto vs weekly, and then cat vs. points.  Personally I prefer weekly, as it's more engaging on the social end and creates a playoffs that is comparable to how actual basketball is played.  However, I understand why people prefer roto, as the overall best team will win everything, vs. a team having bad matchups/scheduling a specific week in the playoffs and it ruining a near perfect season.  However, this is what happens in real sports, so I don't really mind it.  Also, weekly leagues can make some players on teams borderline undraftable if they have a 2 game week during fantasy playoffs. 

On cat vs. points, I've done both, but I prefer points.  My issue with category leagues is that it overemphasizes blocks, steals, percentages to an extent when they are generally minor stats from the perspective of real basketball.  In real basketball, a player getting 2 blocks a game is not equivalent to  a player scoring 30 points.  In category leagues, however, it is.  Some might even say it's more valuable, which is ludicrous.  This is why Serge Ibaka, who has never been in the discussion as a top 20 player at any point in his career, was a 1st round pick for a few years.  It also causes odd focuses, where people will value a player just due to their ability to go 1/1/1.  A player who just does that and contributes nothing else to a team would be abject garbage in real basketball.  We use an adjusted points scale in our league, since standard points leagues overvalue big men by penalizing missed shots too much and not accounting for the difference in average assists vs. average rebounds.  It tends to work out well and pair up to PER/Usage pretty well.  I can see the allure for the additional dimension of worrying about balancing various stats, but if it's all about just balancing a number of categories, why stop at 9?          

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I prefer points as well.  I just like the fact that it emphasizes the true stars instead of these 1-1-1 guys and specialist guys like the poster above mentioned.  

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I see your point, i just dont like basing two players values in such a way that they have a number value, in categories each player has a different value on each team, klay thompson is almost useless on a team that already sucks so bad at shooting threes, or on the opposite side, if they already win that category every week.

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I play in a H2H points league only with a bunch of friends with mindless trash talk. Like hanging out at a bar. Who really cares.

 

For serious players, Rotisserie is the only way to go. To follow up on what @MNDOGG said, Roto is simply chess. Having a quote on quote "stacked" team doesn't really matter. It's all a science.

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Just now, JaydensGuys said:

Guess im going to have to jump into a Roto league next season then, just find it hard finding a league thats as competetive and active as my current 9 cat H2H league

 

Yahoo Pro Leagues, which are cash leagues, are crazy active. 

 

Rule number 1 for Roto,  prioritize in percentages. Hope you have fun.

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Friends don't let friends do points leagues. If that's your thing, just play fantasy football.  The entire attraction of fantasy basketball is the categories and how they interact.  Losing rebounds to gain steals because you can still win against most teams (and most importantly, the best teams) in rebounds but now slightly beat them in steals.  That's the jam.

 

I like H2H over roto but I won't war about it.  Points over cats?  You gotta a jihad on your hands.

 

I've lately had an internal little jihad about FT% versus FTM.  Both are s---y.  But 9 cat is so great and 8 cat (without either) seems lame and 10 counting both is crazy stupid.  

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9 minutes ago, Tom Chambers said:

Friends don't let friends do points leagues. If that's your thing, just play fantasy football.  The entire attraction of fantasy basketball is the categories and how they interact.  Losing rebounds to gain steals because you can still win against most teams (and most importantly, the best teams) in rebounds but now slightly beat them in steals.  That's the jam.

 

I like H2H over roto but I won't war about it.  Points over cats?  You gotta a jihad on your hands.

 

I've lately had an internal little jihad about FT% versus FTM.  Both are s---y.  But 9 cat is so great and 8 cat (without either) seems lame and 10 counting both is crazy stupid.  

 

As for my comment about no TO leagues i also thing adding FTM instead of % is just trying to rocket Deandre or Dwights values..

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Just now, JaydensGuys said:

 

As for my comment about no TO leagues i also thing adding FTM instead of % is just trying to rocket Deandre or Dwights values..

 That's exactly why we did FTM instead of FT%, frankly.  We started out league in 2007 when Dwight was coming on and we collectively (new to fantasy basketball, mind you) thought it was dumb that a top 5-10 player in the NBA would only be like a top 20-30 player in fantasy.  We weren't aware of the concept of punts at that time, but I don't know if it would've changed our minds if we were.

 

Now, it seems kinda silly because there's not a clear top 5-10 player who's atrocious at FT%.  But we were looking at who was good in fantasy to more or less replicate who was good in real life, and I still think that's good.

 

My issue with FTM now is between 3PM and points, s--- starts getting redundant and a guy who draws fouls and hits threes (Harden being an example, although maybe not the best because he's still awesome in FT%) is getting OVER valued with FTM.   Like it just becomes another way to count points and that hurts the fun of category fantasy basketball.

 

I'm waiting for someone smarter than me to figure out a better 9th category, basically.

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1 minute ago, Tom Chambers said:

 That's exactly why we did FTM instead of FT%, frankly.  We started out league in 2007 when Dwight was coming on and we collectively (new to fantasy basketball, mind you) thought it was dumb that a top 5-10 player in the NBA would only be like a top 20-30 player in fantasy.  We weren't aware of the concept of punts at that time, but I don't know if it would've changed our minds if we were.

 

Now, it seems kinda silly because there's not a clear top 5-10 player who's atrocious at FT%.  But we were looking at who was good in fantasy to more or less replicate who was good in real life, and I still think that's good.

 

My issue with FTM now is between 3PM and points, s--- starts getting redundant and a guy who draws fouls and hits threes (Harden being an example, although maybe not the best because he's still awesome in FT%) is getting OVER valued with FTM.   Like it just becomes another way to count points and that hurts the fun of category fantasy basketball.

 

I'm waiting for someone smarter than me to figure out a better 9th category, basically.

 

The fact he gets to the line alot and hits a good % showcases that he is ahead of the pack, which gives his FT% more weight because it is over a higher volume. So he is probably more valuable because he hits volume at a good % same reason guys like klay are so good when they hit their 3s at such a high %

It might be time to change to conventional FT% and then guys cant punt FT% and it adds that extra dynamic that those guys have unlimited value to them but next to none to others

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10 minutes ago, JaydensGuys said:

 

The fact he gets to the line alot and hits a good % showcases that he is ahead of the pack, which gives his FT% more weight because it is over a higher volume. So he is probably more valuable because he hits volume at a good % same reason guys like klay are so good when they hit their 3s at such a high %[/quote]

 

I assume you're talking about Harden, and yeah that's why I said he wasn't the best example.  Just saying that someone that shoots 2/3 consistently is worth more in fantasy than someone that shoots 6/9 consistently, although all other things being equal the latter is probably better in real life.

 

Quote

It might be time to change to conventional FT% and then guys cant punt FT% and it adds that extra dynamic that those guys have unlimited value to them but next to none to others

 Well yeah, but our entire argument was that great players would be great, regardless, not just situational.  I know it doesn't make as much sense now, but in 2007-2009, you'd never say Dwight was "situationally" great.  He was just great, period.

Edited by Tom Chambers
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33 minutes ago, Tom Chambers said:

Friends don't let friends do points leagues. If that's your thing, just play fantasy football. 

 

I do both.  Any type of fantasy basketball league gives you more stability and predictability vs football.  You're not going to see as many 1st/2nd round busts or injury issues in basketball, or waiver wire pick ups end up the best at their position.  The 12 of us have been doing it since 2011 and we all enjoy it.  If you guys love categories so much, play fantasy baseball.  That's where the real gnat's a** statistical analysis happens.   

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Depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. I’ve done everything aside from roto, so I won’t mention that.

 

If you have time and aren’t swamped with work during the beginning months of basketball, then sure, have your way at cats leagues; invest your time and buff up your team where you need it. I’ve found that I’ve become more time-constrained in the past two years, so points leagues give me the good balance between staying in the loop and keeping focused on other matters.

 

If you’re playing for a pay day, I don’t see how you don’t do a points league (or several at a time). I actually find it quite nice to see that more and more people are jumping into points leagues—in the past two season, you’d be hard-pressed to find points league questions in the AC forum. I’ve won a hefty sum the past years off of points leagues. It’s just a matter of drafting with historical data, trading smart, and anticipating the real trade deadline. Reap the benefits at the end and buy yourself something shiny with your winnings.

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I like points league better too , but with adjusted values for scoring. I feel they closer represent real life BB value, low TO's, good % on low volume, and 1/1/1, gives players that are at best top 150 in the league IRL inflated values of top 50+. I mean in what world is OPJ , a top 10 talent in todays NBA?? Or Ariza and GRIFFIN both 5th round talents ? And G.Harris and Aminou are both 4th round and ahead of Blake ? No thanks I'll pass on that..

Edited by manolo_
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27 minutes ago, manolo_ said:

I like points league better too , but with adjusted values for scoring. I feel they closer represent real life BB value, low TO's, good % on low volume, and 1/1/1, gives players that are at best top 150 in the league IRL inflated values of top 50+. I mean in what world is OPJ , a top 10 talent in todays NBA?? Or Ariza and GRIFFIN both 5th round talents ? And G.Harris and Aminou are both 4th round and ahead of Blake ? No thanks I'll pass on that..

 

 

In a world where you are looking for complete basketball players who produce across the board. The top players in 9-cat ROTO are still the top players in real life NBA.  OPJ just got a monster contract in real life basketball because of the total value he provides to a team across the  board in real NBA basketball.. every cateogory is taken into consideration.   Thats the draw to 9-cat roto!. Guys like Reggie Jackson, Dwight Howard who kill you in TOS, horrible FTs bad FG% etc.. are not that good in real basketball and not that good in 9-CAT roto- I would almost argue that points leagues inflates players values who get a lot of counting stats but on high volumes with inefficient style play... You know what hinders Blake from being reat in 9-cat roto and greal life basketball? Defense.. he does not provide defensive stats and play in real life and fantasy.. just saying their is an argument on the other side as well.

 

To each their own.. but I must defend my kingdom! LOL

 

Good luck!

Edited by MNDOGG
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5 minutes ago, MNDOGG said:

 

 

In a world where you are looking for complete basketball players who produce across the board. The top players in 9-cat ROTO are still the top players in real life NBA.  OPJ just got a monster contract in real life basketball because of the total value he provides to a team across the  board in real NBA basketball.. every cateogory is taken into consideration.   Thats the draw to 9-cat roto!. Guys like Reggie Jackson, Dwight Howard who kill you in TOS, horrible FTs bad FG% etc.. are not that good in real basketball and not that good in 9-CAT roto- I would almost argue that points leagues inflates players values who get a lot of counting stats but on high volumes with inefficient style play... You know what hinders Blake from being reat in 9-cat roto and greal life basketball? Defense.. he does not provide defensive stats and play in real life and fantasy.. just saying their is an argument on the other side as well.

 

To each their own.. but I must defend my kingdom! LOL

 

Good luck!

Otto is good but not top 10 good... lets be real. He is top 50 good for sure , maybee 30 and thats it.

Thing is that guys that are good at Basketball will have the ball in their hands a lot, shoot a lot and pass a lot. AKA Higher FGA and FGM , lower % and more TO's than roleplayers. Imo the fairest 9-cat system is FGM/FTM/DD , instead of %/%/TO. 

But each to their own I agree !

Have fun crunching them stats :)

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3 hours ago, manolo_ said:

Otto is good but not top 10 good... lets be real. He is top 50 good for sure , maybee 30 and thats it.

Thing is that guys that are good at Basketball will have the ball in their hands a lot, shoot a lot and pass a lot. AKA Higher FGA and FGM , lower % and more TO's than roleplayers. Imo the fairest 9-cat system is FGM/FTM/DD , instead of %/%/TO. 

But each to their own I agree !

Have fun crunching them stats :)

 

To be fair, Otto won't finish the season in the top 10 in roto leagues, he will most likely land in the 30-50 range at the end of the season. He was 41 on BBM last year. Where does he rank in your points league?

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Purple Hippo said:

 

To be fair, Otto won't finish the season in the top 10 in roto leagues, he will most likely land in the 30-50 range at the end of the season. He was 41 on BBM last year. Where does he rank in your points league?

 

 

In mine he's 31st in one league and 44th in another.  Both points leagues.

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4 hours ago, manolo_ said:

I like points league better too , but with adjusted values for scoring. I feel they closer represent real life BB value, low TO's, good % on low volume, and 1/1/1, gives players that are at best top 150 in the league IRL inflated values of top 50+. I mean in what world is OPJ , a top 10 talent in todays NBA?? Or Ariza and GRIFFIN both 5th round talents ? And G.Harris and Aminou are both 4th round and ahead of Blake ? No thanks I'll pass on that..

I'll argue just for the sake of arguing, cause why not:

 

What I like about cats, to address manolo_, is that you can tailor your team to make someone like Griffin a second round talent.  I just ****** around on BBM and if you punt steals and FT% (not a great punt strategy, or at least not a common one, I'll admit) and then ignore TOs as you always should, Blake is 23rd.  That's more or less like real life. 

 

But the thing that's not so easy for new or casual owners but sooooo fun for more seasoned ones is that everyone's top 50 or 100 or 150 are not the same.  We'll be in the same rules, with the same league, but we have different cats we're trying to win based upon matchups.  I play everyone and win rebounds, okay.  But then I play you and I lose blocks and win assists, but then I play someone else and win blocks but lose assists.  I play someone else and lose both but win FT% and 3s whereas when I played you and the other guy, I only won one.  So your #77 is my #42 because I have different priorities.  And the guy I rate as #110 and borderline rosterable is #59 to you and is a must own.  It's super cool.

 

The paper-rock-scissors aspect of matchups and the way everyone's rankings are different makes 9 cat so crazily fun to me that I'm in over ten leagues this year.  I'm addicted.  

 

 

4 hours ago, MNDOGG said:

 

 

In a world where you are looking for complete basketball players who produce across the board. The top players in 9-cat ROTO are still the top players in real life NBA.  OPJ just got a monster contract in real life basketball because of the total value he provides to a team across the  board in real NBA basketball.. every cateogory is taken into consideration.   Thats the draw to 9-cat roto!. Guys like Reggie Jackson, Dwight Howard who kill you in TOS, horrible FTs bad FG% etc.. are not that good in real basketball and not that good in 9-CAT roto- I would almost argue that points leagues inflates players values who get a lot of counting stats but on high volumes with inefficient style play... You know what hinders Blake from being reat in 9-cat roto and greal life basketball? Defense.. he does not provide defensive stats and play in real life and fantasy.. just saying their is an argument on the other side as well.

 

To each their own.. but I must defend my kingdom! LOL

 

Good luck!

 

Again, just arguing for the fun of it, not saying you're wrong or anything:

 

Aside from the comparative boredom of it being a marathon and not a (weekly) sprint, my issue with roto is in real life, players can be super bad at something but still be a net positive.  Whether it was Shaq (before my time as a fantasy player) and his FT% or Dwight (very much in my time) and his, or just, say Marcus Smart's FG% now: these guys are either superstars (Shaq and Dwight back in the day) or very good role players (Smart and Dwight now, Smart especially), this bad aspect to their game isn't nearly the deal breaker in real life that it is in roto.

 

What would make the impacts similar (and I'm not suggesting this should happen) would be if in your 12 team league, instead of starting 10 people you started like 25.  In that case, Smart's counting stats would counteract his horrible shooting, just like in real life.  But because in standard roto leagues only 120 players are rostered, "real life" good players aren't appreciated as much in fantasy as they are in real life.

 

That's all.  

 

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3 hours ago, Tom Chambers said:

I'll argue just for the sake of arguing, cause why not:

 

What I like about cats, to address manolo_, is that you can tailor your team to make someone like Griffin a second round talent.  I just ****** around on BBM and if you punt steals and FT% (not a great punt strategy, or at least not a common one, I'll admit) and then ignore TOs as you always should, Blake is 23rd.  That's more or less like real life. 

 

But the thing that's not so easy for new or casual owners but sooooo fun for more seasoned ones is that everyone's top 50 or 100 or 150 are not the same.  We'll be in the same rules, with the same league, but we have different cats we're trying to win based upon matchups.  I play everyone and win rebounds, okay.  But then I play you and I lose blocks and win assists, but then I play someone else and win blocks but lose assists.  I play someone else and lose both but win FT% and 3s whereas when I played you and the other guy, I only won one.  So your #77 is my #42 because I have different priorities.  And the guy I rate as #110 and borderline rosterable is #59 to you and is a must own.  It's super cool.

 

The paper-rock-scissors aspect of matchups and the way everyone's rankings are different makes 9 cat so crazily fun to me that I'm in over ten leagues this year.  I'm addicted.  

 

 

 

Again, just arguing for the fun of it, not saying you're wrong or anything:

 

Aside from the comparative boredom of it being a marathon and not a (weekly) sprint, my issue with roto is in real life, players can be super bad at something but still be a net positive.  Whether it was Shaq (before my time as a fantasy player) and his FT% or Dwight (very much in my time) and his, or just, say Marcus Smart's FG% now: these guys are either superstars (Shaq and Dwight back in the day) or very good role players (Smart and Dwight now, Smart especially), this bad aspect to their game isn't nearly the deal breaker in real life that it is in roto.

 

What would make the impacts similar (and I'm not suggesting this should happen) would be if in your 12 team league, instead of starting 10 people you started like 25.  In that case, Smart's counting stats would counteract his horrible shooting, just like in real life.  But because in standard roto leagues only 120 players are rostered, "real life" good players aren't appreciate

 

d as much in fantasy as they are in real life.

 

That's all.  

 

 

 

Well just to keep the argument going.. I would argue that Dwight is really not that good in real life basketball.. has he ever won anything?? I guess early in his career he took Orlando to the ECF? or Finals? but since then hes done absolutley nothing right?

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1 hour ago, MNDOGG said:

 

 

Well just to keep the argument going.. I would argue that Dwight is really not that good in real life basketball.. has he ever won anything?? I guess early in his career he took Orlando to the ECF? or Finals? but since then hes done absolutley nothing right?

No, you're right, but he was good that season.  Finals, and they actually played the Lakers better than I remembered, because I remember thinking it was never close but if you look at the game logs it actually kinda was.  I had a Magic fan in my ear that year though, hyping them up while I rolled my eyes, so that probably skews me.

 

My point is that Howard was for sure a top 10 player that year and probably a top 5 player.  But fantasy didn't reflect that at all, which (as our league was just starting) all my owners thought was dumb.

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