Jump to content
NBC Sports Edge Forums

Josh Gordon 2018 Outlook


Message added by tonycpsu

[We are re-opening this thread on a provisional basis, with an increased focus on keeping the discussion on topic and manageable.  This means that if your comment is not 100% germane to Josh Gordon's fantasy outlook, it is subject to removal, and you will be subject to warning and/or suspension of posting privileges.  There will be no courtesy warnings.  Please contribute to a meaningful fantasy football discussion, or take your commentary elsewhere.]

Recommended Posts

39 minutes ago, youngrice said:

Colts are usually a top 10 offense that finished second to last.  Maybe just maybe it had something to do with the play of the QB.

 

 

I just love those they were a 'top ranked" based arguments :D

 

Actually they finished 2017 as the #30 offense the Giants were #31 with a HOF QB so are u saying brisset is a better QB than Eli? 

Colts were  #24 offense in 2015 when Luck played 7 games so do u want to give Luck half the blame for that season?

Colts also finished 8-8 last year with luck and had the #8 offense and didnt make the playoffs. U want to blame Luck for that?

Somehow  u sort of forget that successful teams need 12 guys playing together on offense and defense to be successful football teams.  So once again it's kind of a dumb argument to say brisset killed TY value when the Colts collectively sucked

 

Colts  ranked #1 in QB sacks allowed. #6 in QB hits, #22 in rush yds

 

I'm going to finish with the most important stat you missed 

COLTS O-LINE RANKED #32 IN PASS PROTECTION 2017

 

But blame TY production on the QB who was learning their offense on the fly right?  :rolleyes:

Maybe just maybe it has everything to do with a terrible football team from mgmt to coaching

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 7.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Thread needs to be cleaned up as the last page and a half is suddenly about the Colts.

 

As far as Gordon, I think he's earned the viewpoint of being a 4th/5th round type of guy as a baseline due to that monster upside. That's just a baseline though. If the Browns draft a QB and they somehow seem legit in the pre season, the Gordon hype will get a little crazy. In that scenario Gordon would probably be pushed into the top 15-18.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jetdog16 said:

Thread needs to be cleaned up as the last page and a half is suddenly about the Colts.

 

As far as Gordon, I think he's earned the viewpoint of being a 4th/5th round type of guy as a baseline due to that monster upside. That's just a baseline though. If the Browns draft a QB and they somehow seem legit in the pre season, the Gordon hype will get a little crazy. In that scenario Gordon would probably be pushed into the 2nd round.

 

I don't think drafting another rookie QB is going to generate enough hype to push JG into the 2nd rd. Getting a vet QB who has the chops to get him the ball would get the hype going to push him up to 2nd rd. guess what Josh McCown leaves jets for Browns  will get Gordon 2nd rd value instanly for fantasy purposes because everyone knows he likes to launch the deep ball

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, dashoe said:

 

 

I just love those they were a 'top ranked" based arguments :D

 

Actually they finished 2017 as the #30 offense the Giants were #31 with a HOF QB so are u saying brisset is a better QB than Eli? 

Colts were  #24 offense in 2015 when Luck played 7 games so do u want to give Luck half the blame for that season?

Colts also finished 8-8 last year with luck and had the #8 offense and didnt make the playoffs. U want to blame Luck for that?

Somehow  u sort of forget that successful teams need 12 guys playing together on offense and defense to be successful football teams.  So once again it's kind of a dumb argument to say brisset killed TY value when the Colts collectively sucked

 

Colts  ranked #1 in QB sacks allowed. #6 in QB hits, #22 in rush yds

 

I'm going to finish with the most important stat you missed 

COLTS O-LINE RANKED #32 IN PASS PROTECTION 2017

 

But blame TY production on the QB who was learning their offense on the fly right?  :rolleyes:

Maybe just maybe it has everything to do with a terrible football team from mgmt to coaching

You keep making excuses.  But stats do not lie.  

 

I also love the guys that think sacks are all the olines fault.  Indy, Houston and Denver allowed the most sacks this year 56, 54 and 52 respectively.   What do they all have in common.  Horrible QB's that hold onto the ball to long and can't read a defense

 

Oh and by the way if your gonna make a ridiculously stupid argument for a scrub QB at least have your stats right. The Colts finished 31st only ahead of the Bungles(Giants finished 21st).

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, dashoe said:

 

I don't think drafting another rookie QB is going to generate enough hype to push JG into the 2nd rd. Getting a vet QB who has the chops to get him the ball would get the hype going to push him up to 2nd rd. guess what Josh McCown leaves jets for Browns  will get Gordon 2nd rd value instanly for fantasy purposes because everyone knows he likes to launch the deep ball

Thanks for remaining on topic. I actually amended my original post. I think the hype would be great enough to push Gordon to the top 15-18. Would that be his ADP? Probably not. I'm just saying I could easily see him being overvalued to that degree. His upside with a competent offense is monstrous. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, youngrice said:

You keep making excuses.  But stats do not lie.  

 

 

 

Oh and by the way if your gonna make a ridiculously stupid argument for a scrub QB at least have your stats right. The Colts finished 31st only ahead of the Bungles(Giants finished 21st).

 

Stats don't lie but you have to know how to comprehend the stat.

 

I can back up by facts how about you? :o

total team offense #30 Colts #31 giants #32 browns

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2017/#all_team_stats  

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dashoe said:

 

Stats don't lie but you have to know how to comprehend the stat.

 

I can back up by facts how about you? :o

total team offense #30 Colts #31 giants #32 browns

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2017/#all_team_stats  

Points per game is not how total offense is ranked. Yards per game is how total offense is ranked. Once again I have to correct you. You are talking about being 30th in points per game.  Any more informed comebacks ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, youngrice said:

Points per game is not how total offense is ranked. Yards per game is how total offense is ranked. Once again I have to correct you. You are talking about being 30th in points per game.  Any more informed comebacks ?

 

 

here i will give u another  site that measures the offense  with a different method as a comparative and colts rank #27

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff

 

You talk alot but you don't back up much my friend

yeah how about you show me your source for a ranking. . .:lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, dashoe said:

 

 

here i will give u another  site that measures the offense  with a different method as a comparative and colts rank #27

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff

 

You talk alot but you don't back up much my friend

yeah how about you show me your source for a ranking. . .:lol:

Pretty simple you said total offense I didn't.  Total yards which is what everybody uses when they talk about total offense.  Like I have said many times stats don't lie colts average 284.6 yds a game.  But good try:blink:.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/seasontype/2

Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, youngrice said:

Points per game is not how total offense is ranked. Yards per game is how total offense is ranked. Once again I have to correct you. You are talking about being 30th in points per game.  Any more informed comebacks ?

That is also lazy analysis. PPG definitely factors into offense. YPG is used as a measuring stick, but doesn't really determine which team has the best offense/defense. The Vikings were #1 defense in YPG, but they weren't really the #1 defense.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, devaster said:

That is also lazy analysis. PPG definitely factors into offense. YPG is used as a measuring stick, but doesn't really determine which team has the best offense/defense. The Vikings were #1 defense in YPG, but they weren't really the #1 defense.

Not saying I disagree. But he mentioned where the colts ranked in total offense. Which is 31st

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, youngrice said:

Pretty simple you said total offense I didn't.  Total yards which is what everybody uses when they talk about total offense.  Like I have said many times stats don't lie colts average 284.6 yds a game.  But good try:blink:.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/seasontype/2

 

At least u finally backed up all of ur talking so i will give u kudos for that.

Then I would argue using ypg that u claim everone uses that everybody doesnt know what they are talking about because essentially how are you measuring 1yd vs the other in terms of effectiveness? Not all yards are created equally in terms of the offenses that produce them, some teams pass alot, some run alot, some pull off big chunky plays, others grind it out, some run a play 5 seconds faster than another offense.  Thats a terrible metric that should have went away with the leather helmet. 

Smart guys will use better metrics like football outsiders which I posted above. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/24/2018 at 8:34 PM, youngrice said:

What comment about hilton throwing the ball to himself.  Brissett was throwing to him and it was a huge step down.  I actually think you want to see the best Gordon can do.  So once again why would you want Brissett to end up in Cle?  When he just killed the value of the WR that lead the league in receiving yards the year before.  

Sorry just assumed you read what you post. You wrote something about "Hilton throwing the ball to himself" which makes no sense, even as a bash against Brissett. I think we both agree that Brissett's QB played affected Hilton's production, no doubt. But this doesn't mean that he's a bad QB. Look at the evidence. 

 

This is pretty basic, but it's a team sport and there are plenty of other factors that weigh on Brissett's play outside of himself. He had almost no time to study the play book prior to starting. Almost no time to build rapport and chemistry. The team is a train wreck. He was sacked 52 times and hit an additional 100+ times. I could go on and on.

 

In spite of all these factors his completion percentage was still nearly 60% and had 17 total TDs with 7 ints. Additionally Hilton had 2 of his career best receiving yards games last year.

 

Pretty sure you're not going to have very much to offer in the way of a rebuttal, so just going to say this has been strictly for educational purposes only. 

 

So yes, I would love Brissett throwing to Gordon. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/25/2018 at 9:31 AM, youngrice said:

You do realize his play progressive got worse as the year went on and teams knew how to game plan for him.   By your logic it should of been the other way around.  Any way I'm done arguing over a career backup.  

As was stated before, the guy is little more than a rookie QB in a new system with a bad offensive line.

 

And teams did figure out his tendencies {which often hampers rookie QBs, but they also figured out that the entire offense was Brissett, Hilton and Doyle. So if teams are focusing coverage Hilton it's logical his stats would fall off. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, pikerbkb said:

As was stated before, the guy is little more than a rookie QB in a new system with a bad offensive line.

 

And teams did figure out his tendencies {which often hampers rookie QBs, but they also figured out that the entire offense was Brissett, Hilton and Doyle. So if teams are focusing coverage Hilton it's logical his stats would fall off. 

As I stated Hilton lead the league in recieving the year before catching passes from luck(never thought I would have to clarify).  Did you ever watch a indy game this year.  Brissett was decent but could not get the ball to his WR's.  Not blaming him but QB's of his nature have limitations.  Nobody had to game plane for hilton because Bristett couldn't get it to him.  Once again this is the Gordon thread and I just want him to have a good QB not a scrub.  WIth all the options out there would you really want Brisett throwing him the ball??  If yes please give an example and reason why.  Prove me wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, youngrice said:

As I stated Hilton lead the league in recieving the year before catching passes from luck(never thought I would have to clarify).  Did you ever watch a indy game this year.  Brissett was decent but could not get the ball to his WR's.  Not blaming him but QB's of his nature have limitations.  Nobody had to game plane for hilton because Bristett couldn't get it to him.  Once again this is the Gordon thread and I just want him to have a good QB not a scrub.  WIth all the options out there would you really want Brisett throwing him the ball??  If yes please give an example and reason why.  Prove me wrong.

 

Here's the thing: even if Brissett had trouble getting the ball to TY Hilton, Josh gordon is an entirely different beast.  Larger catch radius, taller, harder to cover.  It's way easier to get him the ball.  He'll be at least serviceable.  I know it's been beaten to death, but if you can put up 1600 yds with Brandon Weeden at QB then you should be fine with any qb.

Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, GreatestShowonTurf said:

 

Here's the thing: even if Brissett had trouble getting the ball to TY Hilton, Josh gordon is an entirely different beast.  Larger catch radius, taller, harder to cover.  It's way easier to get him the ball.  He'll be at least serviceable.  I know it's been beaten to death, but if you can put up 1600 yds with Brandon Weeden at QB then you should be fine with any qb.

Like I have said many times I want to see what Josh can do with a real NFL QB.  I have no issue with Brisett but I just saw him lead the 31st ranked offense in the league.  Gordon had possibly the most amazing season ever for a a WR. in 2013 he had 3 horrible QBs no run game and a horrible D.  But somehow produced week to week was one of the most amazing things I have seen.  Why are people mad because I want to see him with a real NFL QB?

Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, GreatestShowonTurf said:

 

Here's the thing: even if Brissett had trouble getting the ball to TY Hilton, Josh gordon is an entirely different beast.  Larger catch radius, taller, harder to cover.  It's way easier to get him the ball.  He'll be at least serviceable.  I know it's been beaten to death, but if you can put up 1600 yds with Brandon Weeden at QB then you should be fine with any qb.

Also he didn't put up 1600 yds with Weeden.  He started 5 games that years.  Pretty sure Hoyer started then it went Campbell and Weeden. Thats what was so ridiculous.  He put up numbers week to week no matter who started.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/17/2018 at 1:38 PM, youngrice said:

Cleats are you really saying Gordon should be the first wr taken???  I can see him as a 3rd round back end wr 1 off reputation sure.  But #1 Wr off the board is a big stretch even if they do trade for McCarron.

 

I know there are big ODB believers, but I'd take Gordon off reputation over ODB coming off an Achilles tear, zero doubt in my mind even if ODB is supposedly fully healthy.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/27/2018 at 4:19 PM, Robrain said:

 

I know there are big ODB believers, but I'd take Gordon off reputation over ODB coming off an Achilles tear, zero doubt in my mind even if ODB is supposedly fully healthy.

 

OBJ was an ankle break not an Achilles. 

 

Gordon over OBJ in any circumstance is laughable.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/26/2018 at 8:27 PM, youngrice said:

As I stated Hilton lead the league in recieving the year before catching passes from luck(never thought I would have to clarify).  Did you ever watch a indy game this year.  Brissett was decent but could not get the ball to his WR's.  Not blaming him but QB's of his nature have limitations.  Nobody had to game plane for hilton because Bristett couldn't get it to him.  Once again this is the Gordon thread and I just want him to have a good QB not a scrub.  WIth all the options out there would you really want Brisett throwing him the ball??  If yes please give an example and reason why.  Prove me wrong.

Don't have to prove anything to you. Either you believe or you don't. You just fail to explain any of you opinions.

 

I watched the games, but we see the game differently is one way to put it I guess. We're obviously thinking and communicating on two different levels. It's almost as if you're not reading my posts, but responding to them. Yes,  Luck is a big factor in Hilton's production, I believe I made that comment at least once. He's a generational talent at QB. We all get that. Hilton's production suffered with Brissett under center. No doubt. 

 

Making statements without qualifying them is just blathering. "Brissett couldn't get the ball to his WRs". Well why couldn't he? Because he's a scrub? Great in depth analysis there. 

 

And to say teams didn't have to game plan vs. Hilton is just an.... uniformed statement. Hilton was the focal point of opposing defenses every week. Are you serious? How do you play FF knowing so little about the game?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, pikerbkb said:

Don't have to prove anything to you. Either you believe or you don't. You just fail to explain any of you opinions.

 

I watched the games, but we see the game differently is one way to put it I guess. We're obviously thinking and communicating on two different levels. It's almost as if you're not reading my posts, but responding to them. Yes,  Luck is a big factor in Hilton's production, I believe I made that comment at least once. He's a generational talent at QB. We all get that. Hilton's production suffered with Brissett under center. No doubt. 

 

Making statements without qualifying them is just blathering. "Brissett couldn't get the ball to his WRs". Well why couldn't he? Because he's a scrub? Great in depth analysis there. 

 

And to say teams didn't have to game plan vs. Hilton is just an.... uniformed statement. Hilton was the focal point of opposing defenses every week. Are you serious? How do you play FF knowing so little about the game?

After watching Hilton in the Pro Bowl game today you have to wonder about the talent of Brissett. Sure they were playing touch-tackle, but he still made a ridiculous catch over Patrick Peterson that should have been an interception. And showed some nice moves splitting defenders.

 

Some receivers tank without a decent QB throwing to them though. Look at AB's games without Big Ben.

Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, joshua18 said:

 

OBJ was an ankle break not an Achilles. 

 

Gordon over OBJ in any circumstance is laughable.

 

 

Laughable because everyone knows that comparison would be a comedic thought. Gordon has every measurable equal or better than OBJ the only thing he lacks is a  HOF QB throwing him the ball :mellow:

Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, devaster said:

After watching Hilton in the Pro Bowl game today you have to wonder about the talent of Brissett. Sure they were playing touch-tackle, but he still made a ridiculous catch over Patrick Peterson that should have been an interception. And showed some nice moves splitting defenders.

 

Some receivers tank without a decent QB throwing to them though. Look at AB's games without Big Ben.

 

If mcdaniels takes the job he must not be too worried because there is no guarantee Luck will be back in full form and Brissett is the backup

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...