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1 hour ago, The Invictus said:

Yes, then why are they building the offense to be short centric? Funny, of all the QB's in this draft the main thing he's known for is his short to intermediate efficiency, never his downfield passing . Yet you maybe right in your contrarian view, But I doubt it... and certainly wouldn't bet on it, in terms of Gordon certainly. I am a Mayfield believer though.

 

It’s not my view.  My position is based upon the facts available.  No QB in the draft threw better NFL level passes than Mayfield, including deep passes.  I put some of those facts on the table already.  Perhaps you could put forth some data that supports your position, which is the contrarian view, BTW.

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Lost 3 really good offensive linemen. Lost a dual threat QB, who can also throw better than any of the QBs they brought in. Worst WR corps in the league.   DND.

Who are your biggest busts for the 2018 season?  Here are mine:   Lesean McCoy - bad QB, bad o-line, 30 years old, huge career workload Jordan Howard - less carries, more passing in Chi

15 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

It’s not my view.  My position is based upon the facts available.  No QB in the draft threw better NFL level passes than Mayfield, including deep passes.  I put some of those facts on the table already.  Perhaps you could put forth some data that supports your position, which is the contrarian view, BTW.

Hey, I'm a Mayfield guy but it strikes me as pretty evident now in the Pros the Browns are building a short passing, running team. As far as data, if you call it that on a player yet to throw a pro pass, the Browns paid heavily for the short pass catching specialist maybe all time in Landry. They didn't pursue Sammy Watkins or even Allen Robinson, both downfield WR's. They already locked up Duke Johnson, who basically is doing nothing but short receptions from the RB position.Then added Chubb with a high pick, after signing Hyde. All that is data for me.

Can Mayfield throw down the field... yes he has the ability. My whole point is Gordon will not see the targets to sustain his draft expectations. If my view is the contrarian one, good. I guess it is seeing him drafted again tonight in the 3rd round as an owners first WR. When owners do that in my drafts, I'm already feeling my chances of cashing increase.

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14 minutes ago, The Invictus said:

Hey, I'm a Mayfield guy but it strikes me as pretty evident now in the Pros the Browns are building a short passing, running team. As far as data, if you call it that on a player yet to throw a pro pass, the Browns paid heavily for the short pass catching specialist maybe all time in Landry. They didn't pursue Sammy Watkins or even Allen Robinson, both downfield WR's. They already locked up Duke Johnson, who basically is doing nothing but short receptions from the RB position.Then added Chubb with a high pick, after signing Hyde. All that is data for me.

Can Mayfield throw down the field... yes he has the ability. My whole point is Gordon will not see the targets to sustain his draft expectations. If my view is the contrarian one, good. I guess it is seeing him drafted again tonight in the 3rd round as an owners first WR. When owners do that in my drafts, I'm already feeling my chances of cashing increase.

 

If you’re talking about Taylor throwing downfield, I’ll agree.  Taylor makes plays with his legs.  He leaves some to be desired as a passer.  His passing shortcomings don’t extend themselves to Mayfield, but for some reason you appear to be doing that because your description of Mayfield’s abilities don’t fit what he did as a passer in college.

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26 minutes ago, The Invictus said:

Hey, I'm a Mayfield guy but it strikes me as pretty evident now in the Pros the Browns are building a short passing, running team. As far as data, if you call it that on a player yet to throw a pro pass, the Browns paid heavily for the short pass catching specialist maybe all time in Landry. They didn't pursue Sammy Watkins or even Allen Robinson, both downfield WR's. They already locked up Duke Johnson, who basically is doing nothing but short receptions from the RB position.Then added Chubb with a high pick, after signing Hyde. All that is data for me.

Can Mayfield throw down the field... yes he has the ability. My whole point is Gordon will not see the targets to sustain his draft expectations. If my view is the contrarian one, good. I guess it is seeing him drafted again tonight in the 3rd round as an owners first WR. When owners do that in my drafts, I'm already feeling my chances of cashing increase.

 

My drafted wr's last season were arob-garcon-britt-tyrell-tate. . I won my league.

 

I doubt if Gordon busts it will kill a teams season 

You don't win your league in the draft, you win managing your team for the entire season.

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1 hour ago, Axe Elf said:

 

There's another WR who fell victim to Tyrod Taylor the Toadmaker.  Benjamin was a 70-catch, 1000-yard, 8-TD WR for two full seasons in Carolina; when he came to Buffalo, he caught 16 balls for 217 yards and 1 TD in six games.

That's a bit out of context.

 

In Benjamin's 2 full seasons in CAR, he had 

 

145 targets-73 receptions-1008 yards-9TDs--50.3% catch rate

118 targets-63 receptions-941 yards-7 TDs--53.4% catch rate

 

In his time with Buffalo, he had

 

26 targets-16 receptions-217 yards-1 TD--59.3% catch rate

 

Going with the improved catch rate while playing with a more accurate QB, and based on his past usage, his numbers in a full season in Buffalo would have looked like:

 

130 targets-77 receptions-1044 yards-5 TDs

 

Hard to say on the TD number for sure.  That could increase if he wasn't changing teams in the middle of a season and learning a new playbook.  There's a learning curve there.

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40 minutes ago, Experienced Rookie said:

That's a bit out of context.

 

In Benjamin's 2 full seasons in CAR, he had 

 

145 targets-73 receptions-1008 yards-9TDs--50.3% catch rate

118 targets-63 receptions-941 yards-7 TDs--53.4% catch rate

 

In his time with Buffalo, he had

 

26 targets-16 receptions-217 yards-1 TD--59.3% catch rate

 

Going with the improved catch rate while playing with a more accurate QB, and based on his past usage, his numbers in a full season in Buffalo would have looked like:

 

130 targets-77 receptions-1044 yards-5 TDs

 

Hard to say on the TD number for sure.  That could increase if he wasn't changing teams in the middle of a season and learning a new playbook.  There's a learning curve there.

 

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

What are you, Tyrod's cousin or something?

 

Spin it all you like, Benjamin was a strong WR2 in Carolina and waiver wire fodder in Buffalo.

 

Based on his numbers through 6 games, Benjamin would have posted 43 receptions for 579 yards and 3 TDs through a full 16 games.

 

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33 minutes ago, Axe Elf said:

Based on his numbers through 6 games, Benjamin would have posted 43 receptions for 579 yards and 3 TDs through a full 16 games.

 

So pretty similar to Sammy Watkins without Tyrod Taylor.

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40 minutes ago, Axe Elf said:

 

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

What are you, Tyrod's cousin or something?

 

Spin it all you like, Benjamin was a strong WR2 in Carolina and waiver wire fodder in Buffalo.

 

Based on his numbers through 6 games, Benjamin would have posted 43 receptions for 579 yards and 3 TDs through a full 16 games.

 

You're basing those stats on a guy who had no training camps, no practices, no playbook, and chemistry with Tyrod and Buffalo.  You cant expect a guy to be 100% as productive as when he was playing multiple years within the same system, and with the same QB.  It's not the same.  I have no doubt that if Kelvin was Tyrod's #1 WR, and they had a full offseason together, he could easily match his numbers from when he was with Cam.  Tyrod is the better QB.

 

Yeah...that's right.  Tyrod is better than Cam.  The ONLY thing that Cam does better than Tyrod, is bowling into the endzone on those goal line plays.  That's it.  Their rushing stats are almost identical otherwise, and Tyrod has a better passer rating and completion percentage....oh, and he turns the ball over less.  

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8 minutes ago, RMJ_12 said:

So pretty similar to Sammy Watkins without Tyrod Taylor.

Tyrod kind of reminds me of Alex Smith.  His career is made up of underachieving WRs...

 

Smith broke out last year.  So could Tyrod, but I’m not willing to bet on him (his WRs) with the worst coach on the worst team of all time.

 

The Browns are looking up, but some things need to change first before I draft one of Tyrod’s WRs in the 3rd.

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10 minutes ago, Experienced Rookie said:

You're basing those stats on a guy who had no training camps, no practices, no playbook, and chemistry with Tyrod and Buffalo.  You cant expect a guy to be 100% as productive as when he was playing multiple years within the same system, and with the same QB.  It's not the same.  I have no doubt that if Kelvin was Tyrod's #1 WR, and they had a full offseason together, he could easily match his numbers from when he was with Cam.  Tyrod is the better QB.

 

Yeah...that's right.  Tyrod is better than Cam.  The ONLY thing that Cam does better than Tyrod, is bowling into the endzone on those goal line plays.  That's it.  Their rushing stats are almost identical otherwise, and Tyrod has a better passer rating and completion percentage....oh, and he turns the ball over less.  

Tyrod isn’t better than Cam, and I don’t like Cam.

 

In 2015 Cam was a good QB that carried his team.  Tyrod has never done that...

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2 hours ago, dashoe said:

 

My drafted wr's last season were arob-garcon-britt-tyrell-tate. . I won my league.

 

I doubt if Gordon busts it will kill a teams season 

You don't win your league in the draft, you win managing your team for the entire season.

Yes, no debating that great managing trumps all.

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2 hours ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

If you’re talking about Taylor throwing downfield, I’ll agree.  Taylor makes plays with his legs.  He leaves some to be desired as a passer.  His passing shortcomings don’t extend themselves to Mayfield, but for some reason you appear to be doing that because your description of Mayfield’s abilities don’t fit what he did as a passer in college.

We're having a disconnect here...I'm not questioning if mayfield CAN get Gordon the ball, my point is they won't be designing the offense enough, seeing the targets, to justify his draft position. He'll be leaving many an owner disappointed. I also don't see Mayfield coming in until a bit into the season, and will obviously be a Rookie. I'm not expecting D. Watson here. All things considered, he has more bust potential than not relative to his expectations.

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7 hours ago, Experienced Rookie said:

You're basing those stats on a guy who had no training camps, no practices, no playbook, and chemistry with Tyrod and Buffalo.  You cant expect a guy to be 100% as productive as when he was playing multiple years within the same system, and with the same QB.  It's not the same.  I have no doubt that if Kelvin was Tyrod's #1 WR, and they had a full offseason together, he could easily match his numbers from when he was with Cam.  Tyrod is the better QB.

 

Yeah...that's right.  Tyrod is better than Cam.  The ONLY thing that Cam does better than Tyrod, is bowling into the endzone on those goal line plays.  That's it.  Their rushing stats are almost identical otherwise, and Tyrod has a better passer rating and completion percentage....oh, and he turns the ball over less.  

Come on now. Tyrod is not as good and has never been as good as Cam. Without making this a Cam/tyrod thread, pretty sure Tyrod was never league MVP. Tyrod has never had more TDs or more passing yards. You can argue that Cam has more weapons around him, but really all he ever had was a good running game, a TE and fair receivers. Tyrod is a great placeholder and backup qb. But you aren't making him the face of the franchise and wouldn't have at any point in his career. Let's not get too carried away with Tyrod love...even if we hate Cam. 

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8 hours ago, The Invictus said:

We're having a disconnect here...I'm not questioning if mayfield CAN get Gordon the ball, my point is they won't be designing the offense enough, seeing the targets, to justify his draft position. He'll be leaving many an owner disappointed. I also don't see Mayfield coming in until a bit into the season, and will obviously be a Rookie. I'm not expecting D. Watson here. All things considered, he has more bust potential than not relative to his expectations.

 

There’s no disconnect.  You claimed several times that Mayfield’s game is going to be dink and dunk, and because of that Gordon was going to be a bust.  I showed facts that Mayfield is a vey good downfield passer - the best in this draft in fact.  When Mayfield takes over, he’ll have plenty enough game to make Gordon a strong FF asset.  

 

That said, as a Mayfield owner I hope he doesn’t see one snap this year.  And yeah, that would put a bit of a crimp in Gordon’s redraft value.

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45 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

There’s no disconnect.  You claimed several times that Mayfield’s game is going to be dink and dunk, and because of that Gordon was going to be a bust.  I showed facts that Mayfield is a vey good downfield passer - the best in this draft in fact.  When Mayfield takes over, he’ll have plenty enough game to make Gordon a strong FF asset.  

 

That said, as a Mayfield owner I hope he doesn’t see one snap this year.  And yeah, that would put a bit of a crimp in Gordon’s redraft value.

I never 'claimed' anything. You have been shown facts on how the Browns have constructed the future of the offense, and it isn't the deep ball. If you choose to see otherwise and invest in that skewed view, enjoy. I love it , it just increases my chances.

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48 minutes ago, The Invictus said:

I never 'claimed' anything. You have been shown facts on how the Browns have constructed the future of the offense, and it isn't the deep ball. If you choose to see otherwise and invest in that skewed view, enjoy. I love it , it just increases my chances.

 

I’ll let you prattle on by yourself.  It’s impossible to carry on a discussion with someone who doesn’t realize or refuses to own what he wrote a few posts earlier, and as to the CLE O you’ve presented nothing but your own opinion, which I’m now convinced you believe is fact.  As to increasing your chances, it increases your chances at what exactly?

 

Adios.

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19 hours ago, Mattice1 said:

Come on now. Tyrod is not as good and has never been as good as Cam. Without making this a Cam/tyrod thread, pretty sure Tyrod was never league MVP. Tyrod has never had more TDs or more passing yards. You can argue that Cam has more weapons around him, but really all he ever had was a good running game, a TE and fair receivers. Tyrod is a great placeholder and backup qb. But you aren't making him the face of the franchise and wouldn't have at any point in his career. Let's not get too carried away with Tyrod love...even if we hate Cam. 

Tyrod never had Steve Smith and Greg Olsen either..

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5 hours ago, cdd10 said:

Tyrod never had Steve Smith and Greg Olsen either..

Cam hasn't had Smith since 2013...had an MVP season since then. I did mention he arguably had better weapons, but cam hasn't had much the last 4 years and managed to outproduce tyrod every year in passing yards and passing TDs. Not a huge cam fan, but not that freaking high on tyrod. He is a good backup, but you aren't taking tyrod st any point in his career as a franchise qb

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On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:58 AM, Mattice1 said:

Come on now. Tyrod is not as good and has never been as good as Cam. Without making this a Cam/tyrod thread, pretty sure Tyrod was never league MVP. Tyrod has never had more TDs or more passing yards. You can argue that Cam has more weapons around him, but really all he ever had was a good running game, a TE and fair receivers. Tyrod is a great placeholder and backup qb. But you aren't making him the face of the franchise and wouldn't have at any point in his career. Let's not get too carried away with Tyrod love...even if we hate Cam. 

Why?  Name one thing Cam does better than Tyrod besides plunging into the endzone from the 2 yard line.  Having one MVP season means s---.  Look at Cam's MVP year if you get a chance.  Then look at all of his other years.  That MVP season isn't even close to his career numbers.  Its an outlier.

 

Stats bear everything out.  They have no bias or prejudice.  They don't care which guy was the #1 overall pick.  They don't care about superstardom and marketability that sways opinion.

 

Player A:

58.5% completion

4.6% TD rate

2.7% INT rate

7.3 YPA

Career QB rating: 85.3

 

5.2 Yards Per Carry

 

Player B: 

62.4% completion

4.1% TD rate

1.4% INT rate

7.2 TPA

Career QB rating: 91.2

 

5.5 Yards Per Carry

 

Which one do you want?

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3 hours ago, Experienced Rookie said:

Why?  Name one thing Cam does better than Tyrod besides plunging into the endzone from the 2 yard line.  Having one MVP season means s---.  Look at Cam's MVP year if you get a chance.  Then look at all of his other years.  That MVP season isn't even close to his career numbers.  Its an outlier.

 

Stats bear everything out.  They have no bias or prejudice.  They don't care which guy was the #1 overall pick.  They don't care about superstardom and marketability that sways opinion.

 

Player A:

58.5% completion

4.6% TD rate

2.7% INT rate

7.3 YPA

Career QB rating: 85.3

 

5.2 Yards Per Carry

 

Player B: 

62.4% completion

4.1% TD rate

1.4% INT rate

7.2 TPA

Career QB rating: 91.2

 

5.5 Yards Per Carry

 

Which one do you want?

I really don't want either of the if I am starting a franchise today. That said, I want the guy who has thrown for more yards and more TDs litterly every year since being in the league. Give me that guy in real life and in fantasy. Tyrod is fine...the point originally we are arguing is Josh Gordon. To get back to Josh Gordon, I am not sure Tyrod and his low career yard numbers are supporting huge wr numbers. Love Josh's talent, don't love situation.

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1 hour ago, Mattice1 said:

I really don't want either of the if I am starting a franchise today. That said, I want the guy who has thrown for more yards and more TDs litterly every year since being in the league. Give me that guy in real life and in fantasy. 

Cam averages roughly 80 more passing attempts per season than Tyrod did in Buffalo. That's the only reason he's put up bigger offensive numbers. 

 

Tyrod is more efficient, has less turnovers, and a better passing rating. Just less volume. 

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1 hour ago, Experienced Rookie said:

Cam averages roughly 80 more passing attempts per season than Tyrod did in Buffalo. That's the only reason he's put up bigger offensive numbers. 

 

Tyrod is more efficient, has less turnovers, and a better passing rating. Just less volume. 

Whatever. The topic here is not Cam versus tyrod. So move on with that. What is your projection for Josh Gordon given tyrod has never thrown for more than 3100 yds? How much do you see that increasing with the browns? 

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