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Kawhi Leonard 2018-19 Season Thread


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2 hours ago, miasma16 said:

Toronto is a small media market and Boston isn't. Population doesn't matter. Nobody cares about the Raptors and they care about the Celtics. 

No, neither are small media markets.  This isn't a subjective thing and it isn't about fan size.  It's simply about how many TV-watching households there are in a metropolitan area.  

 

Toronto is objectively a very large media market.  

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A team that revolves around lowry and Jv? Have you ever watched a raptors game in your life?    Jonas played 22.4 mpg. His usage was 22.5. Lowry had an ever lower usage of 21.5.  

Garnett joined a loaded BOS roster with Pierce, Ray Allen and Rondo.   TOR traded their highest usage player (DeRozen) for Kawhi.  He's also going to a team with the 3rd highest pace (SA was

I'd actually argue that it's better to be traded than sign as a FA because TOR just gave up their #1 usage player to get Kawhi.  LeBron & Durant went to teams with multiple superstars (Wade, Bosh

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14 minutes ago, miasma16 said:

Attendance doesn't matter. I know their team valuation is in the #12-14 range. If you have viewership numbers, please cite them. Would love to see those.

They averaged 229,000 per game locally, not sure how other teams did, i could only find neilson ratings for the U.S teams not actual numbers

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17 minutes ago, Idoolittle said:

Forbes has Toronto ranked 12th in terms of revenue. Well below the Knicks, Lakers, Warriors, Bulls, and Celtics. I get the whole idea that it's all of Canada behind the Raptors and not just Toronto (I'm a Canadian that's not from Toronto and I root for the Raptors), but the numbers don't lie. They're a middle of the road team in terms of market size.

 

Market size has zero to do with popularity.  Large market teams are usually more popular, but small market teams can be popular and large market teams may not.

 

You guys might find this helpful.

 

http://www.tvb.ca/page_files/pdf/cdn_tv_2013-04-29.pdf

 

CTRL+F for Toronto or just go to page 7.  This has Toronto behind Philadelphia, but I'm sure that's changed in the last five years.

 

Big market is big market is big market.  If we were gonna talk about popularity, we'd use that word.

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4 minutes ago, Tom Chambers said:

 

Market size has zero to do with popularity.  Large market teams are usually more popular, but small market teams can be popular and large market teams may not.

 

You guys might find this helpful.

 

http://www.tvb.ca/page_files/pdf/cdn_tv_2013-04-29.pdf

 

CTRL+F for Toronto or just go to page 7.  This has Toronto behind Philadelphia, but I'm sure that's changed in the last five years.

 

Big market is big market is big market.  If we were gonna talk about popularity, we'd use that word.

It's really not helpful, though. What are those viewers watching? Those are just generic Nielsen demographics.

 

If the Raptors had the 5th biggest media market and were coming off a first-place finish in their conference, don't you think they'd be more than a middle of the pack valuated franchise? Toronto is a big media market. The Raptors get a fraction of the coverage that a sorry a** franchise like the Knicks do. That's what matters.

 

10 minutes ago, azeri98 said:

They averaged 229,000 per game locally, not sure how other teams did, i could only find neilson ratings for the U.S teams not actual numbers

This is helpful, but doesn't really prove anything in this discussion. I'm sure the Minnesota Wild have a great share locally, but what are the total numbers for their games? The global numbers? People in Slovenia watch Knick games. Who is watching Toronto games outside of Toronto?

 

This argument has changed from where it originally sat. Raptor game viewership was brought up and, again, I am very curious what the numbers are. But I would assume they're mid-table at best. The Raptors aren't even in the same realm of bankability for Kawhi as a destination than the Celtics would be. He doesn't care about city population. No athlete does. They want exposure and sponsorships. Superstars don't get nearly the off-court value with Top 12 viewership that he does with a true powerhouse franchise.

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25 minutes ago, Tom Chambers said:

 

Market size has zero to do with popularity.  Large market teams are usually more popular, but small market teams can be popular and large market teams may not.

 

You guys might find this helpful.

 

http://www.tvb.ca/page_files/pdf/cdn_tv_2013-04-29.pdf

 

CTRL+F for Toronto or just go to page 7.  This has Toronto behind Philadelphia, but I'm sure that's changed in the last five years.

 

Big market is big market is big market.  If we were gonna talk about popularity, we'd use that word.


Sorry, I was referring to Toronto as a basketball market (specifically how the Raptors perform compared to other NBA teams)... not a general media market. Two completely different subjects. 

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27 minutes ago, miasma16 said:

It's really not helpful, though. What are those viewers watching? Those are just generic Nielsen demographics.

 

That's 100% exactly what "market size" is.  The size of the TV market.  What they're watching doesn't matter at all the definition at all.

 

If you want to say the Raptors aren't popular, or as popular as their media market suggests, that's one thing.  But they're a big market team, that's just the fact: they're in a really big market.

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Just now, Tom Chambers said:

That's 100% exactly what "market size" is.  The size of the TV market.  What they're watching doesn't matter at all the definition at all.

 

If you want to say the Raptors aren't popular, or as popular as their media market suggests, that's one thing.  But they're a big market team, that's just the fact: they're in a really big market.

Yeah, we know, but that just makes this into a dumb argument. A Rotoworld blurb used "market size" wrong. We're all aware of that. The discussion morphed beyond that.

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3 hours ago, J.T. Marlin said:

Want to get the discussion on this thread turned towards Kawhi's fantasy value for the 2018-19 season.  I am assuming that he's fully healthy and ready to go in TOR.  Definite top 8 pick IMO.  We could easily see him add 2 MPG, which would obviously boost his counting stats.  Only guys that I would take in front of him at this point are AD, Harden, Giannis, KAT, Jokic, Durant & Curry (and I may bump Kawhi over KD & Steph if everything is looking good the rest of the offseason and during TC, preseason).


Really hard to tell where his value's at. Have to assume he'll get a boast moving from the West to the East, but he's also played limited games in the past year. And who knows if his injury problems are behind him now. Overall I do think you're close, but I would have Westbrook and Lebron ahead of him. Probably in the same neighbourhood as Lillard/Oladipo. 

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21 minutes ago, Tom Chambers said:

 

That's 100% exactly what "market size" is.  The size of the TV market.  What they're watching doesn't matter at all the definition at all.

 

If you want to say the Raptors aren't popular, or as popular as their media market suggests, that's one thing.  But they're a big market team, that's just the fact: they're in a really big market.


You're talking about two completely different things here. Yes, Toronto is a big market in North America in general. However, they are only middle of the road when we specifically look at the NBA. Which in an NBA thread is generally what people would be referring to when talking about "market size". 

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Toronto is the least attractive city among NBA players and Kawhi is the most disgruntled player in NBA history. How high is the chance Kawhi will stay in Toronto? 10%, 20%, 30%? If Toronto takes the route of OKC and fails. The trade will looks like: DeRozan+Poetl+unprotectred 1st round pick for Danny Green.

 

Even LBJ admits "there is no magic pill" against GSW. It doesn't matter whether it is Kawhi or DeMar playing in Toronto. Their chance of winning the Champion next season is still zero.

 

No one will argue that DeRozan is a better player than Kawhi. But DeRozan is a prolific scorer at his prime. He is physically and mentally stable, just opposite to the current version of Kawhi. 28M pa is at least a fair value, similar to H.Barnes, Wiggins, D.Booker, Hayward, Potter, Love. Especially when you count in the coming inflation in cap space the next two seasons, it will turn out to be a bargain deal.

 

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1 hour ago, Idoolittle said:


You're talking about two completely different things here. Yes, Toronto is a big market in North America in general. However, they are only middle of the road when we specifically look at the NBA. Which in an NBA thread is generally what people would be referring to when talking about "market size". 

 

No, when you say market size, it means one thing. The size of the market.  

 

There is no other meaning.  None.  TV Market sizes don't change from sport to sport based on popularity.  The only way they can change is when they're artificially made so (ire, the Nats being in the Orioles market, so they pay the Orioles).

 

This is a dumb semantic argument, I'm just pointing out that this isn't subjective, at all.  There's a defined thing.

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45 minutes ago, littlesamtung said:

Toronto is the least attractive city among NBA players and Kawhi is the most disgruntled player in NBA history.

 

Holy hyperbole

 

45 minutes ago, littlesamtung said:

 DeRozan is a prolific scorer at his prime. He is physically and mentally stable, just opposite to the current version of Kawhi. 

 

I understand the point you are trying to make, but I do not know if this is the best choice of words given that derozan has openly admitted to his mental health issues just this past season. 

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4 hours ago, jay14bay said:

 

Holy hyperbole

 

 

I understand the point you are trying to make, but I do not know if this is the best choice of words given that derozan has openly admitted to his mental health issues just this past season. 

DeMar is mad at Toronto but that doesn't mean he hate to play for the Spurs. This is two different matters. On the contrary, he has more incentive to prove the Raptors wrong.

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11 hours ago, jay14bay said:

 

Holy hyperbole

 

 

I understand the point you are trying to make, but I do not know if this is the best choice of words given that derozan has openly admitted to his mental health issues just this past season. 

Hopefully this is just a joke, but someone seems more stable to me who can openly admit that they have chemical imbalance going on in their brain versus someone who barricades themselves from their respective teams and doesn’t ever speak to the media. 

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Regardless of my personal opinion I don’t foresee Mejiri making out the winner in the eyes of public opinion.  Even if everything breaks his way and this gets them to the finals (let’s be honest they won’t win) and they resign Kawhi people will STILL talk about how he sold out DeRozan.  And if things don’t go his way and they finish no further than last year and don’t keep Kawhi people will talk about how he got rid of DeRozan for nothing.  This is despite the fact that they probably weren’t going to the finals with DeRozan anyway.  I’m afraid this will turn into a lose-lose in the public eye.  For that reason I’m not inclined to discuss who has more mental health issues.  I think for many people it doesn’t matter.  This isn’t a debate that can be settled by logic it’s more of an emotional debate. 

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Idk what's going on in Kawhi's head, but I get the impression that his uncle is a greedy little Scrooge. It's a contract year for Kawhi, and he wants to get tf outta Toronto. I'm thinking he balls hard and becomes a top 5 to top 8 player to prove to the LA teams that he's worth the risk and worth a max contract. He's got a bad rep now around the L, but a killer season would do wonders in helping that. All he's gotta do is stay healthy.

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2 hours ago, StifleTower2 said:

Regardless of my personal opinion I don’t foresee Mejiri making out the winner in the eyes of public opinion.  Even if everything breaks his way and this gets them to the finals (let’s be honest they won’t win) and they resign Kawhi people will STILL talk about how he sold out DeRozan.  And if things don’t go his way and they finish no further than last year and don’t keep Kawhi people will talk about how he got rid of DeRozan for nothing.  This is despite the fact that they probably weren’t going to the finals with DeRozan anyway.  I’m afraid this will turn into a lose-lose in the public eye.  For that reason I’m not inclined to discuss who has more mental health issues.  I think for many people it doesn’t matter.  This isn’t a debate that can be settled by logic it’s more of an emotional debate. 

Do people see Danny Ainge as a winner? He sold Isaiah Thomas in a similar, though not identical situation. I think winning will make people forget and going to the finals will make the public forgive Mejiri.

 

I think Kawhi will have a break out contract year. Even if he wants to move to LA, he needs to play like a max contract player to get that money. There's no point of risking that money by sitting around.

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1 minute ago, rob0403 said:

Do people see Danny Ainge as a winner? He sold Isaiah Thomas in a similar, though not identical situation. I think winning will make people forget and going to the finals will make the public forgive Mejiri..

I personally think both Aigne and Mejiri are huge winners.  One difference is that it’s  IT2 will probably never be the same as before but DeRozan will be.  The other that Irving was happy about the trade and Kawhi isn’t happy to go to Toronto.  So it’s apples and oranges.  

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1 hour ago, bplus said:

Idk what's going on in Kawhi's head, but I get the impression that his uncle is a greedy little Scrooge. It's a contract year for Kawhi, and he wants to get tf outta Toronto. I'm thinking he balls hard and becomes a top 5 to top 8 player to prove to the LA teams that he's worth the risk and worth a max contract. He's got a bad rep now around the L, but a killer season would do wonders in helping that. All he's gotta do is stay healthy.

 

his uncle is like... the new lavar ball

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19 hours ago, TheOneAboveAll said:

 

I'm not bullish. I'd pick Lebron over him and those players you mentioned. There could be a decrease in his shooting efficiency as he learns to play in a new system.

 

It's been verified and proven.  Kawhi is not a system player.  He *IS* the system.  A monster on both ends of the court.

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6 hours ago, StifleTower2 said:

Regardless of my personal opinion I don’t foresee Mejiri making out the winner in the eyes of public opinion.  Even if everything breaks his way and this gets them to the finals (let’s be honest they won’t win) and they resign Kawhi people will STILL talk about how he sold out DeRozan.  And if things don’t go his way and they finish no further than last year and don’t keep Kawhi people will talk about how he got rid of DeRozan for nothing.  This is despite the fact that they probably weren’t going to the finals with DeRozan anyway.  I’m afraid this will turn into a lose-lose in the public eye.  For that reason I’m not inclined to discuss who has more mental health issues.  I think for many people it doesn’t matter.  This isn’t a debate that can be settled by logic it’s more of an emotional debate. 

Salah Mejri is ALWAYS a winner, i think you meant Ujiri tho

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Any concerns of a 'Popovich effect', similar to Steven's effect? 

 

I have lowered expectations of anyone leaving the Celtics after being burned by the shells of Bradley, Crowder and to some degree IT .

 

I went back like 10 years...I can't find any top-100 players that have left the Spurs. George Hill was close, but he had his best seasons in Indy. This year Spurs lost 2 in Kawhi and Anderson.

 

Some coaches just seem to know how to bring out the best in players. 

 

I suppose the reverse question in regards to Derozen.

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14 minutes ago, jsquints said:

Any concerns of a 'Popovich effect', similar to Steven's effect? 

 

I have lowered expectations of anyone leaving the Celtics after being burned by the shells of Bradley, Crowder and to some degree IT .

 

I went back like 10 years...I can't find any top-100 players that have left the Spurs. George Hill was close, but he had his best seasons in Indy. This year Spurs lost 2 in Kawhi and Anderson.

 

Some coaches just seem to know how to bring out the best in players. 

 

I suppose the reverse question in regards to Derozen.

 

I actually think Kawhi will have a career year with the raps( contract year for 150 ~200+ mils contract if anyone is not motivate for this they got a problem lol), everything DDR can do kawhi can do better, he will filled in the roll of DDR just fine. I wonder where his ADP will be this year, 6th -10th pick first round?

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1 hour ago, jsquints said:

Any concerns of a 'Popovich effect', similar to Steven's effect? 

 

I have lowered expectations of anyone leaving the Celtics after being burned by the shells of Bradley, Crowder and to some degree IT .

 

I went back like 10 years...I can't find any top-100 players that have left the Spurs. George Hill was close, but he had his best seasons in Indy. This year Spurs lost 2 in Kawhi and Anderson.

 

Some coaches just seem to know how to bring out the best in players. 

 

I suppose the reverse question in regards to Derozen.

 

A lot of players fall off after leaving the Spurs--DeJuan Blair, Gary Neal, Tiago Splitter, Roger Mason--but that has something to do with the Spurs not dumping guys until they start to show cracks. In the cases where they let younger guys go for other reasons--George Hill, Marco Belinelli, Cory Joseph--those guys have done all right other places. Kyle Anderson should do well with a larger opportunity. Kawhi I'm really not sure about. It will depend on his health and his attitude, but I wouldn't take him before the 12th pick in redraft.

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