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OK, not to jump back to Super 2 status because I understand it for the most part, but isn't there a chance Super 2 could become a non-issue in the end due to the new labor agreement coming up at the end of/after this season? Just thinking aloud to myself...

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Without looking at your team, you have the room. 

Oh, that absolutely isn't true in the slightest.   Brujan has to prove that upon his callup he WON'T rank in the top 22% (rounded to the nearest whole number) in total service in the class of Pla

Honestly at this point I'll friggin take 10 sbs from anyone 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, knifeparty said:

If someone has the time I would love to know why and when the Super 2 Rule was implemented.  I know the general rule itself but I have never understood why it was put into place.  I get baseball is very different from other sports in that players generally need more time to develop before they are ready to play at the top level.  In other sports the minute a draft pick signs their rookie contract the clock is ticking on that contract.  There is no well if we sit him this year it won't count towards the whatever year deal he signed.  Why does baseball have to be different in these regards?  Sure some guys take longer to develop but some are ready the day they are drafted yet we have to wait years to see them in most cases.  What better way to inject some life into a sport that is struggling then to have young kids playing when they are ready instead of running out guys who can't hit .200 anymore.  Forget the fantasy side of it just imagine your team misses the playoffs by a game or 2 when you know that they didn't run out their best possible team all year just to save a few bucks.  It's not even just a Rays thing there are plenty of big market teams that do this exact same BS every year.  

P.S. Sorry for the extreme run on babbling.  I am extremely tired but wanted to vent on this topic and didn't feel like using my spacebar anymore. 

Well it's tough because sometimes players need 4-5 years in the minors.  If they had to be compensated a lot for those 4-5 years, many of them wouldn't be signed to begin with. If all the players in the minors were paid minimal major league deals, they couldn't afford that because there are a ton of players in the minors and a ton of them never make the majors. That's why they all get paid basically nothing besides their signing deal. So the question becomes how long should they be controlled. Currently it's 6 full seasons but you get an extra season if they didn't play the full 7th season. That 7th season (the first one really) only counts as a 7th and not the first of 6th if you wait a month (like Acuna/Bryant). So they only play 5/6 months kind of and then they get 6 seasons of control after. 

Then theres the question of how much you get paid for those seasons.  You generally get 3 at minimum and then 3 at arbitration.  The whole Super 2 thing is how much they get paid for that 7th year (the last one) and is determined by how much they play for the first one.  Acuna/Bryant got called up early (because they were great and ready, even well before), so those teams cared less and got 3 years at minimum and 4 years arb. But if you wait fir super 2, it flips and you get 4 years at minimum and 3 at arb, because they played less time in that first year so it was more like 6.5 years instead of 6.8 years. So if the Rays wait until Super 2, they get 4 years (this one included) at minimum deals and pay them arb for 3. For a great player that 4th year of arb could be 20 or 30 million. The argument for the Rays is, that's a lot of extra money to pay a guy for just a few more months of production in their first year.

There's really no easy solution. In general they should reduce the control years by at least one.  If they took out Super 2 and made it so that no matter what its 4 years arb and 3 years minimum regardless of how much time they played in the majors that first season, then you'd likely see a lot of guys up earlier after that first month. At the same time, you'd see a lot of guys prevented from being called up late because it makes less sense to start their clock in august when that would be only 1 of their 3 years at minimum deal, and it would only be for a short time.

I agree, it's annoying. It's bad for the game to have exciting young stars held down.

There just isn't an easy solution

 

 

Edited by brockpapersizer
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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

Well it's tough because sometimes players need 4-5 years in the minors.  If they had to be compensated a lot for those 4-5 years, many of them wouldn't be signed to begin with. If all the players in the minors were paid minimal major league deals, they couldn't afford that because there are a ton of players in the minors and a ton of them never make the majors. That's why they all get paid basically nothing besides their signing deal. So the question becomes how long should they be controlled. Currently it's 6 full seasons but you get an extra season if they didn't play the full 7th season. That 7th season (the first one really) only counts as a 7th and not the first of 6th if you wait a month (like Acuna/Bryant). So they only play 5/6 months kind of and then they get 6 seasons of control after. 

Then theres the question of how much you get paid for those seasons.  You generally get 3 at minimum and then 3 at arbitration.  The whole Super 2 thing is how much they get paid for that 7th year (the last one) and is determined by how much they play for the first one.  Acuna/Bryant got called up early (because they were great and ready, even well before), so those teams cared less and got 3 years at minimum and 4 years arb. But if you wait fir super 2, it flips and you get 4 years at minimum and 3 at arb, because they played less time in that first year so it was more like 6.5 years instead of 6.8 years.

There's really no easy solution. In general they should reduce the control years by at least one.  If they took out Super 2 and made it so that no matter what its 4 years arb and 3 years minimum regardless of how much time they played in the majors that first season, then you'd likely see a lot of guys up earlier after that first month. At the same time, you'd see a lot of guys prevented from being called up late because it makes less sense to start their clock in august when that would be only 1 of their 3 years at minimum deal, and it would only be for a short time.

I agree, it's annoying. It's bad for the game to have exciting young stars held down.

 

 

 

That's a great breakdown--thanks! Can you explain one thing for me I've forgotten over time? How is the 22% of players deemed super 2 eligible broken down? I used to have the full explanation for this (and I still may actually know, but am unsure and unable to read much while at work right now) and could also break it down into a small writeup, which is all I'm looking for. Just trying to remember...

Edited by nlm
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1 hour ago, nlm said:

 

That's a great breakdown--thanks! Can you explain one thing for me I've forgotten over time? How is the 22% of players deemed super 2 eligible broken down? I used to have the full explanation for this (and I still may actually know, but am unsure and unable to read much while at work right now) and could also break it down into a small writeup, which is all I'm looking for. Just trying to remember...

I never bothered to dig into that because the less it concerns with fantasy baseball, the less I care. Something about the number of prospects called up before a certain date. And they only know what the date is for sure much later, but based on all previous years they have a good guess and usually wait a few weeks after that to be safe.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, CORTEz said:

@brockpapersizer any predictions of when you think Brujan might get the call?

None honestly, might need an injury or super 2. Sometime between today and Late June/Early July my best guess. Certainly we're approaching it.

Edited by brockpapersizer
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Yeah...It feels like it has to be sometime in the next 30 days...Brujan has nothing left to prove (obviously), and the Rays are struggling from an offensive perspective (aside from Arozarena)...

He's played 2B, 3B and all 3 OF positions. It is the Rays after all....so gotta take everything with a bit of skepticism when it comes to getting your hopes up...

But his bat and speed are sorely needed right now at the top of the lineup.

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3 hours ago, nlm said:

OK, not to jump back to Super 2 status because I understand it for the most part, but isn't there a chance Super 2 could become a non-issue in the end due to the new labor agreement coming up at the end of/after this season? Just thinking aloud to myself...

Yes, that's possible. But it would require the player's union to give something up in order to benefit minor league players, and with how much they're already going to want, that seems like it's going to be a lower priority they'll be willing to give up in negotiations. I think we're unlikely to see any change because MiLB guys have no real seat at the table and only get whatever crumbs the union and league feel like tossing their way. But it could absolutely happen. 

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16 minutes ago, CORTEz said:

Yeah...It feels like it has to be sometime in the next 30 days...Brujan has nothing left to prove (obviously), and the Rays are struggling from an offensive perspective (aside from Arozarena)...

He's played 2B, 3B and all 3 OF positions. It is the Rays after all....so gotta take everything with a bit of skepticism when it comes to getting your hopes up...

But his bat and speed are sorely needed right now at the top of the lineup.

Well, 32 runs in their last 3 games. Ji-Man Choi of all people is going off. Wendle catching fire again. Hopefully the Rays aren't suddenly content with their offense after a thrashing of the Orioles.

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1 minute ago, PhilaFanBoy said:

Well, 32 runs in their last 3 games. Ji-Man Choi of all people is going off. Wendle catching fire again. Hopefully the Rays aren't suddenly content with their offense after a thrashing of the Orioles.

Yes, lets hope so :D

Lowe how been horrible at 2B, (still hitting under the Mendoza line), Adames hasn't been much better at SS, 3B seems to be a somewhat revolving door between Diaz, Wendle and Brosseau, and I'd argue that Brujan could easily take over one of the 3 OF spots.

The one thing that Rays have needed is some kind of certainty in their lineup...Never good when you see the lineup and batting order change as much as you do daily.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, nlm said:

OK, not to jump back to Super 2 status because I understand it for the most part, but isn't there a chance Super 2 could become a non-issue in the end due to the new labor agreement coming up at the end of/after this season? Just thinking aloud to myself...

 

Anything's possible. In the last CBA they actually "moved" the Super-2 cutoff to a later date. I put quotes around "moved", because as we know there's no set deadline. It's just based on a percentage of eligible players. But the criteria they used to determine eligibility for Super-2 changed. And that change effectively moved it from late April/Early May to early June. So they actually made the whole thing worse. This whole thing is often illogical for fans (though can help veteran players hold on to jobs longer).

Edited by Jericho
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53 minutes ago, CORTEz said:

Yeah...It feels like it has to be sometime in the next 30 days...Brujan has nothing left to prove (obviously), and the Rays are struggling from an offensive perspective (aside from Arozarena)...

He's played 2B, 3B and all 3 OF positions. It is the Rays after all....so gotta take everything with a bit of skepticism when it comes to getting your hopes up...

But his bat and speed are sorely needed right now at the top of the lineup.

 

Brujan is hot right now and the Rays should take advantage of it.   

But sadly the contract aspect for players takes priority for the organization over the team needs for a smoking hot player.

It's in baseball's best interest to get this resolved.     Teams, players and fans would all benefit.

 

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2 hours ago, Jericho said:

 

Anything's possible. In the last CBA they actually "moved" the Super-2 cutoff to a later date. I put quotes around "moved", because as we know there's no set deadline. It's just based on a percentage of eligible players. But the criteria they used to determine eligibility for Super-2 changed. And that change effectively moved it from late April/Early May to early June. So they actually made the whole thing worse. This whole thing is often illogical for fans (though can help veteran players hold on to jobs longer).

 

Yeah, that makes total sense to me, because I distinctively remember the super 2 cutoff being around April or May based on years of the past.

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6 hours ago, nlm said:

OK, not to jump back to Super 2 status because I understand it for the most part, but isn't there a chance Super 2 could become a non-issue in the end due to the new labor agreement coming up at the end of/after this season? Just thinking aloud to myself...

I believe that the clubs, who obviously are fully aware of the negotiating strategy the owners will employ in the upcoming labor negotiations, have en masse decided that they will insist upon "grandfathering" service time rules for players who have already been called up.

I base this upon the fact that guys like Wander and Brujan are obviously being manipulated according to the current service time rules.  If the clubs believed they wouldn't be grandfathered in they would have called them up already.  

**Guys, I know the answer is unsatisfying, but we really don't need any more "when might he be called up" questions for Vidal or Wander.   It feels like a broken record at this point ... myself and others have been pointing out since March that the Rays were not going to call up these guys until the Super Two cut-off, which is historically mid June.  That's the answer.  Nobody can tell you exactly when it will pass because it's based on a percentage. The earliest I can recall it off the top off my head was like June 10th, and the latest that comes to mind was June 23rd ... I think.  

 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Overlord said:

I believe that the clubs, who obviously are fully aware of the negotiating strategy the owners will employ in the upcoming labor negotiations, have en masse decided that they will insist upon "grandfathering" service time rules for players who have already been called up.

I base this upon the fact that guys like Wander and Brujan are obviously being manipulated according to the current service time rules.  If the clubs believed they wouldn't be grandfathered in they would have called them up already.  

**Guys, I know the answer is unsatisfying, but we really don't need any more "when might he be called up" questions for Vidal or Wander.   It feels like a broken record at this point ... myself and others have been pointing out since March that the Rays were not going to call up these guys until the Super Two cut-off, which is historically mid June.  That's the answer.  Nobody can tell you exactly when it will pass because it's based on a percentage. The earliest I can recall it off the top off my head was like June 10th, and the latest that comes to mind was June 23rd ... I think.  

 

 

Yup. Nothing you can do but hang on sloopy for now.

I'm just excited I was able to pick Brujan up before he got this hot... I think I added him after his first or second game of the minor league season and stashed him in my N/A. His hype has gotten nuts.

--

Does anybody know about anything to do with this power surge? After a lost season, I don't know what he may or may not have done during the time away. He had 19 HR over 1500AB (correct me if I am wrong!) heading into 2021, and he has 6 HR in 56AB this season. That makes me think there definitely were some adjustments made. They also say it's the year of the pitcher due to sticky balls? Does this apply to minor league baseball, too? (I'm being half-serious here...or 3/4ths serious.)

Edited by nlm
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19 minutes ago, nlm said:

 

Yup. Nothing you can do but hang on sloopy for now.

I'm just excited I was able to pick Brujan up before he got this hot... I think I added him after his first or second game of the minor league season and stashed him in my N/A. His hype has gotten nuts.

--

Does anybody know about anything to do with this power surge? After a lost season, I don't know what he may or may not have done during the time away. He had 19 HR over 1500AB (correct me if I am wrong!) heading into 2021, and he has 6 HR in 56AB this season. That makes me think there definitely were some adjustments made. They also say it's the year of the pitcher due to sticky balls? Does this apply to minor league baseball, too? (I'm being half-serious here...or 3/4ths serious.)

There were definitely scouts that were predicting Brujan would grow into some power for a while now.  It isn’t a complete surprise that he is showing it, even if there was some question as to whether or not he would eventually find it. 

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It's getting borderline ridiculous now....

3 More SB tonight, dude literally has nothing left to prove. Seeing performances like this make me excited for the future of the Rays.

They need to call him up pronto. Tired of watching Brandon Lowe and half the other team of Rays hit .220....

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31 minutes ago, IlliniGuy76 said:

What are we talking about there?  Floor/Ceiling?  MLB comps?

It doesn't look like the guy will be a power hitter, is that accurate?

I see a lighter Jonathan Villar when I look at the film. Looks like this kid has a bit more plate discipline than Johnny does. More walks=More steals.

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Wander Franco gets all the hype but it definitely looks like Brujan will be called up before Franco.

1) Brujan age

2) Brujan is on active 40 man roster

3) Brujan MIIB performance this year

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1 hour ago, IlliniGuy76 said:

What are we talking about there?  Floor/Ceiling?  MLB comps?

It doesn't look like the guy will be a power hitter, is that accurate?

Floor = Jose peraza?  Ceiling = Jose Reyes?

No idea, all just fun speculation at this point, but I want a ticket to the show.

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I picked him up to stash in my 12-team keeper forever a couple weeks ago. At the time, I believe ownership was around 15% (CBS). Now it’s nearly doubled to 29%.

If you have bought shares yet, widow is going to get narrower.

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22 hours ago, brockpapersizer said:

Well it's tough because sometimes players need 4-5 years in the minors.  If they had to be compensated a lot for those 4-5 years, many of them wouldn't be signed to begin with. If all the players in the minors were paid minimal major league deals, they couldn't afford that because there are a ton of players in the minors and a ton of them never make the majors. That's why they all get paid basically nothing besides their signing deal. So the question becomes how long should they be controlled. Currently it's 6 full seasons but you get an extra season if they didn't play the full 7th season. That 7th season (the first one really) only counts as a 7th and not the first of 6th if you wait a month (like Acuna/Bryant). So they only play 5/6 months kind of and then they get 6 seasons of control after. 

Then theres the question of how much you get paid for those seasons.  You generally get 3 at minimum and then 3 at arbitration.  The whole Super 2 thing is how much they get paid for that 7th year (the last one) and is determined by how much they play for the first one.  Acuna/Bryant got called up early (because they were great and ready, even well before), so those teams cared less and got 3 years at minimum and 4 years arb. But if you wait fir super 2, it flips and you get 4 years at minimum and 3 at arb, because they played less time in that first year so it was more like 6.5 years instead of 6.8 years. So if the Rays wait until Super 2, they get 4 years (this one included) at minimum deals and pay them arb for 3. For a great player that 4th year of arb could be 20 or 30 million. The argument for the Rays is, that's a lot of extra money to pay a guy for just a few more months of production in their first year.

There's really no easy solution. In general they should reduce the control years by at least one.  If they took out Super 2 and made it so that no matter what its 4 years arb and 3 years minimum regardless of how much time they played in the majors that first season, then you'd likely see a lot of guys up earlier after that first month. At the same time, you'd see a lot of guys prevented from being called up late because it makes less sense to start their clock in august when that would be only 1 of their 3 years at minimum deal, and it would only be for a short time.

I agree, it's annoying. It's bad for the game to have exciting young stars held down.

There just isn't an easy solution

 

 

This needs to be stickied (or at least parts of if it and ironed out) for anyone who needs to understand super 2.  At the very least included in a top of the MiLB forum explain so the question's answer could be referenced instead of having to search through a random thread for the explanation.  Excellent post.

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1 hour ago, charger_ss24 said:

I picked him up to stash in my 12-team keeper forever a couple weeks ago. At the time, I believe ownership was around 15% (CBS). Now it’s nearly doubled to 29%.

If you have bought shares yet, widow is going to get narrower.

He was available?

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