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Saquon Barkley 2019 Outlook


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On 7/1/2019 at 4:41 PM, joshua18 said:

The groupthink also wants to justify its hatred of the Giants taking Saquon over a QB (notice those voices getting quieter now that Rosen busted in ARI last year), and he has given them no reason to do so.

Who was lobbying for the Giants to take Rosen last year? Darnold was always the guy. 

Darnold + Josh Allen + Odell is an infinitely better trio than Saquon + Daniel Jones + Dexter Lawrence, it's not even close. The Giants blew it. If they're in the midst of another losing season and Daniel Jones isn't ready to go or plays and doesn't look like an NFL QB then Gettleman and Shurmur are gone after this year. 

That said I'd still take Barkley No. 1 overall in fantasy. 

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confirmed - spotted coming down Broadway last night ....

These are always the best posts.  I got a high ankle sprain at the YMCA and the recovery time was totally comparable to what Saquan Barkley will be going through.

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13 minutes ago, P@ckersFan said:

Who was lobbying for the Giants to take Rosen last year? Darnold was always the guy. 

Darnold + Josh Allen + Odell is an infinitely better trio than Saquon + Daniel Jones + Dexter Lawrence, it's not even close. 

That said I'd still take Barkley No. 1 overall. 

 

 

Not a valid comparison. The Giants got a 4-for-1 package for OBJ - it wasn't just Dexter Lawrence.

1) Golden Tate (used portion of OBJ's cap savings to sign Tate's deal). Where Tate lacks in pure talent compared to OBJ, he makes up for with grit, toughness, situational playmaking (clutch factor). People keep ignoring the cap savings from OBJ's deal which went partially to Tate.

2) Dexter Lawrence (a foundational defensive player in the mold of Vince Wilfork. Hogmollies over Diva WRs all day, every day)

3) Oshane Ximines - PFF's #3 most productive edge rusher in the entire 2018 class. 33 sacks in 3 years. Dropped to the Giants because he played at Old Dominion.

4) Jabril Peppers (an ascending Swiss army knife who is miles better than Collins in Pass Coverage)

 

So in reality:

Saquon + Daniel Jones + Golden Tate + Dexter Lawrence + Oshane Ximines + Jabril Peppers 

>>>>>>>>

Darnold + Josh Allen + OBJ

 

 

Your post suggests OBJ for Dexter Lawrence was a 1-for-1 trade - which is ludicrous and not factual.

And, the Giants are the sleeper team of 2019. #6 highest scoring offense in football the final 8 games of 2019. 60% of their O-Line has been upgraded since then (C - Halapio, RG - Zeitler, RT - Remmers). 10-6 given their schedule is very realistic.

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1 hour ago, Adp23 said:

Not a valid comparison. The Giants got a 4-for-1 package for OBJ - it wasn't just Dexter Lawrence.

1) Golden Tate (used portion of OBJ's cap savings to sign Tate's deal). Where Tate lacks in pure talent compared to OBJ, he makes up for with grit, toughness, situational playmaking (clutch factor). People keep ignoring the cap savings from OBJ's deal which went partially to Tate.

 2) Dexter Lawrence (a foundational defensive player in the mold of Vince Wilfork. Hogmollies over Diva WRs all day, every day)

3) Oshane Ximines - PFF's #3 most productive edge rusher in the entire 2018 class. 33 sacks in 3 years. Dropped to the Giants because he played at Old Dominion.

4) Jabril Peppers (an ascending Swiss army knife who is miles better than Collins in Pass Coverage)

 

You are right the Giant's haul for OBJ was more that just 1 guy, but let's evaluate.

1. Golden Tate is gritty and tough, but he's not in the same stratosphere as OBJ. I don't know how you can assign a clutch factor to him: are you basing it off the Bear catch? 

2. If by "foundational," you mean he plays in the trenches then yes, but he's never graded or been projected as anything better than an NFL-starter type player. 

3. Ximines is a pass-only down player right now. 

4. Jabril Peppers is an average safety on his best day. Saying that you're miles better than Collins in pass coverage is hardly a compliment. 

Quote

Saquon + Daniel Jones + Golden Tate + Dexter Lawrence + Oshane Ximines + Jabril Peppers 

>>>>>>>>

Darnold + Josh Allen + OBJ

 

I still disagree with this. You still don't have a proven quarterback here and you have 2 All Prow talents at key positions vs 1 all-pro RB. 

 

Quote

And, the Giants are the sleeper team of 2019. #6 highest scoring offense in football the final 8 games of 2019. 60% of their O-Line has been upgraded since then (C - Halapio, RG - Zeitler, RT - Remmers). 10-6 given their schedule is very realistic.

There is 0 chance that this team wins 10 games this year. The O-Line is unproven, Eli is still Eli, the defense is among the worst in the league, and they have no home-run playmakers on offense besides Barkley anymore.

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2 hours ago, P@ckersFan said:

I still disagree with this. You still don't have a proven quarterback here and you have 2 All Prow talents at key positions vs 1 all-pro RB. 

 

Idk what pairing of players is better but but only quarrel with taking saquon is the length of success he can have. Sam darnold could play for 20 years and with the new rules probably remaine pretty injury free. Saquon on the other hand plays the most physically demanding position in sports. Hes probably got something like 10 or 11 years of playing not to mention a much much high chance of injury. 

2 hours ago, P@ckersFan said:

There is 0 chance that this team wins 10 games this year. The O-Line is unproven, Eli is still Eli, the defense is among the worst in the league, and they have no home-run playmakers on offense besides Barkley anymore.

 

Yanno I think the giants head coach is really good. He took a hot mess and made them competitive for several games later in the season. But no way they win 10 games. It's almost a certainty they lose 5 games of their 6 division games... if not all 6 depending on how injury riddled the Redskins get this year

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21 hours ago, P@ckersFan said:

 

You are right the Giant's haul for OBJ was more that just 1 guy, but let's evaluate.

1. Golden Tate is gritty and tough, but he's not in the same stratosphere as OBJ. I don't know how you can assign a clutch factor to him: are you basing it off the Bear catch? 

2. If by "foundational," you mean he plays in the trenches then yes, but he's never graded or been projected as anything better than an NFL-starter type player. 

3. Ximines is a pass-only down player right now. 

4. Jabril Peppers is an average safety on his best day. Saying that you're miles better than Collins in pass coverage is hardly a compliment. 

 

I still disagree with this. You still don't have a proven quarterback here and you have 2 All Prow talents at key positions vs 1 all-pro RB. 

 

There is 0 chance that this team wins 10 games this year. The O-Line is unproven, Eli is still Eli, the defense is among the worst in the league, and they have no home-run playmakers on offense besides Barkley anymore.

 

 

The ultimate goal is to win a Super Bowl.

No team with an attention-seeking diva WR ever wins a Super Bowl. Meaning, if OBJ is on your team, you will never win a Super Bowl. He is fool's gold. The Giants did a masterful job of getting a haul for him before it was too late. Brilliant, really. OBJ is a loser.

 

 

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23 hours ago, Adp23 said:

 

 

Not a valid comparison. The Giants got a 4-for-1 package for OBJ - it wasn't just Dexter Lawrence.

1) Golden Tate (used portion of OBJ's cap savings to sign Tate's deal). Where Tate lacks in pure talent compared to OBJ, he makes up for with grit, toughness, situational playmaking (clutch factor). People keep ignoring the cap savings from OBJ's deal which went partially to Tate.

2) Dexter Lawrence (a foundational defensive player in the mold of Vince Wilfork. Hogmollies over Diva WRs all day, every day)

3) Oshane Ximines - PFF's

 

 

Your post suggests OBJ for Dexter Lawrence was a 1-for-1 trade - which is ludicrous and not factual.

And, the Giants are the sleeper team of 2019. #6 highest scoring offense in football the final 8 games of 2019. 60% of their O-Line has been upgraded since then (C - Halapio, RG - Zeitler, RT - Remmers). 10-6 given their schedule is very realistic.

 

22 hours ago, P@ckersFan said:

 

You are right the Giant's haul for OBJ was more that just 1 guy, but let's evaluate.

1. Golden Tate is gritty and tough, but he's not in the same stratosphere as OBJ. I don't know how you can assign a clutch factor to him: are you basing it off the Bear catch? 

2. If by "foundational," you mean he plays in the trenches then yes, but he's never graded or been projected as anything better than an NFL-starter type player. 

3. Ximines is a pass-only down player right now. 

4. Jabril Peppers is an average safety on his best day. Saying that you're miles better than Collins in pass coverage is hardly a compliment. 

 

I still disagree with this. You still don't have a proven quarterback here and you have 2 All Prow talents at key positions vs 1 all-pro RB. 

 

There is 0 chance that this team wins 10 games this year. The O-Line is unproven, Eli is still Eli, the defense is among the worst in the league, and they have no home-run playmakers on offense besides Barkley anymore.

 

You are sleeping on Dexter Lawrence. I will bookmark this thread for 15 years from now. Giants won the trade.

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1 hour ago, Adp23 said:

 

 

The ultimate goal is to win a Super Bowl.

No team with an attention-seeking diva WR ever wins a Super Bowl. Meaning, if OBJ is on your team, you will never win a Super Bowl. He is fool's gold. The Giants did a masterful job of getting a haul for him before it was too late. Brilliant, really. OBJ is a loser.

 

 

Michael Ervin never won a super bowl?

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21 minutes ago, Stonej14 said:

Michael Ervin never won a super bowl?

 

I think you'll find that Michael Earvings (if we're getting his name wrong, lets make it interesting) was very much an exception. Of all the superbowl winning teams over the last 2 decades, i'm guessing only 1 had a whiny b*tch 'me-first' type receiver, and that was John Gruden's Buccaneers with Mr. Keyshawn Johnson. And their 'success' didn't last long.

 

Look through the list and you'll see that all the successful teams, especially repeat winners, featured gritty, hard-working types. Like the Steelers, who won with Hines Ward. The Patriots, who won with guys like David Givens, Deion Branch, Edelman. Go a little further back, Rod Smith with the Broncos. Not the most talented guys, but very productive, and well-liked by their coaches and team-mates. Can you blame a GM for preferring players of that profile?

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2 hours ago, Adp23 said:

The ultimate goal is to win a Super Bowl.

No team with an attention-seeking diva WR ever wins a Super Bowl. Meaning, if OBJ is on your team, you will never win a Super Bowl. He is fool's gold. The Giants did a masterful job of getting a haul for him before it was too late. Brilliant, really. OBJ is a loser.

 

Big picture the OBJ trade is the bi-product of the Giants realizing a year too late that they were in a rebuild. Having a quarterback and defense is more important to as Super Bowl roster than not having a diva WR. The Giants have neither of those.

We went through this all last year when there was still hope for Eli, Solder was signed, Hernandez was drafted, OBJ was getting healthy to pair with Shepard and Engram and the defense still had pieces and look what happened.

Now Eli is a year older and a proven JAG, they lost several of their best defensive players and their only standout WR and the offensive line is still unproven. The best thing that can happen (rather than a miracle) is rather than finishing 6-10 is the Giants finish 2-14 so they can do what the Cardinals just did, get a real QB for the future and can Gettleman. Of course by the time that gets fixed Saquon will be approaching a contract year. 

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1 hour ago, youngrice said:

I hate the cowboys and irvin.  But Irvin was not a attention seeking diva on the field.

 

In the superbowl he chased down one of his wrs who was running for a TD screaming "that's my touchdown that was my f****** touch down" that's pretty diva.

 

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1 hour ago, predator_05 said:

 

I think you'll find that Michael Earvings (if we're getting his name wrong, lets make it interesting) was very much an exception. Of all the superbowl winning teams over the last 2 decades, i'm guessing only 1 had a whiny b*tch 'me-first' type receiver, and that was John Gruden's Buccaneers with Mr. Keyshawn Johnson. And their 'success' didn't last long.

 

Look through the list and you'll see that all the successful teams, especially repeat winners, featured gritty, hard-working types. Like the Steelers, who won with Hines Ward. The Patriots, who won with guys like David Givens, Deion Branch, Edelman. Go a little further back, Rod Smith with the Broncos. Not the most talented guys, but very productive, and well-liked by their coaches and team-mates. Can you blame a GM for preferring players of that profile?

 

That's true but I think every team in the past 20 years to win a superbowl but 3 or 4 had had a hall of fame type qb as well. (Flacco, Foles, Brad Johnson, dilfer)

Diva wide receivers rarely lose games for teams. Owen's wasn't the reason the eagles lost the superbowl and moss wasnt the reason the Pat's lost the superbowl and Steve Smith wasnt the reason the the Panthers lost the superbowl. And antonio brown wasnt the reason the Steelers lost in the playoffs. 

If you wanna make the argument that they cost too much and are a salary cap hindrance and dont allow you to fill other important roster spots that fair but that's the same for the non diva wrs who are great like holt or Harrison or d thomas.

All that being said I agree with you that teams should sign 2 or 3 mid range guys like the rams have or like the Patriots do but I dont agree that teams lose because their WR is a diva 

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6 hours ago, Stonej14 said:

 

In the superbowl he chased down one of his wrs who was running for a TD screaming "that's my touchdown that was my f****** touch down" that's pretty diva.

 

LOL!! Don't remember that one.  Give you its pretty diva if he was really pissed.  Overall I just see diva wr's as guys that put their personal stats over the team.  To me Irvin didn't fit that bill.  But everybody has their own view on what a diva is.

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1 hour ago, youngrice said:

LOL!! Don't remember that one.  Give you its pretty diva if he was really pissed.  Overall I just see diva wr's as guys that put their personal stats over the team.  To me Irvin didn't fit that bill.  But everybody has their own view on what a diva is.

I think that if you google "diva receivers NFL" and his name pops up in pretty much every link, then... he might be a bit of a diva.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/10-of-the-biggest-diva-wide-receivers-in-nfl-history/ar-AABsAm5

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2019/05/16/10-of-the-biggest-diva-wide-receivers-in-nfl-history/7/

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/792185-nfl-rankings-the-ten-best-and-biggest-wide-receiver-divas-of-all-time#slide6

Or maybe he was just a thoroughly nice guy who was misunderstood. It happens.

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14 hours ago, P@ckersFan said:

 

Big picture the OBJ trade is the bi-product of the Giants realizing a year too late that they were in a rebuild. Having a quarterback and defense is more important to as Super Bowl roster than not having a diva WR. The Giants have neither of those.

We went through this all last year when there was still hope for Eli, Solder was signed, Hernandez was drafted, OBJ was getting healthy to pair with Shepard and Engram and the defense still had pieces and look what happened.

Now Eli is a year older and a proven JAG, they lost several of their best defensive players and their only standout WR and the offensive line is still unproven. The best thing that can happen (rather than a miracle) is rather than finishing 6-10 is the Giants finish 2-14 so they can do what the Cardinals just did, get a real QB for the future and can Gettleman. Of course by the time that gets fixed Saquon will be approaching a contract year. 

Sorry dude, the Giants clearly won the OBJ trade. Look what the Bears got for Mack. Enough said.

Daniel Jones will have a better NFL career than Sam Darnold.

Saquon will retire as the #1 greatest RB in NFL history.

The offensive line is currently Top 10 in the NFL.

James Bettcher is an elite defensive coordinator and in Year 2 of the defense, he finally has the scheme fits to run his 3-4. The Giants are building a Patriots-like team defense where everyone plays within the scheme, they will blitz and play man coverage with one of the best secondaries in the league.

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14 hours ago, P@ckersFan said:

 

Big picture the OBJ trade is the bi-product of the Giants realizing a year too late that they were in a rebuild. Having a quarterback and defense is more important to as Super Bowl roster than not having a diva WR. The Giants have neither of those.

We went through this all last year when there was still hope for Eli, Solder was signed, Hernandez was drafted, OBJ was getting healthy to pair with Shepard and Engram and the defense still had pieces and look what happened.

Now Eli is a year older and a proven JAG, they lost several of their best defensive players and their only standout WR and the offensive line is still unproven. The best thing that can happen (rather than a miracle) is rather than finishing 6-10 is the Giants finish 2-14 so they can do what the Cardinals just did, get a real QB for the future and can Gettleman. Of course by the time that gets fixed Saquon will be approaching a contract year. 

 

7.5 Yards Per Attempt says otherwise.

NFL coaches and analysts will tell you that YPA is the best indicator of a QB's efficiency and performance.

Eli's 7.5 YPA was in the top half of the league..

And oh, Eli led the #6 scoring offense in football over the final 8-gane stretch of 2018. 6th out of 32 teams. 50% of a whole season. That was still with a below-average line, before Zeitler and Remmers.

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Sorry dude, the Giants clearly won the OBJ trade. Look what the Bears got for Mack. Enough said.

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying the Giants got more for OBJ than the Raiders got for Mack and that means the Giants won their trade? The Bears got Mack and were a missed FG from the work kicker in football away from making it to the Divisional Championship. The Raiders are run by idiots, much like the Giants have been for years. 

Quote

Daniel Jones will have a better NFL career than Sam Darnold.

Saquon will retire as the #1 greatest RB in NFL history.

The offensive line is currently Top 10 in the NFL.

 

This is baseless, delusional wish-casting at this point. Sam Darnold graded out infinitely better than Daniel Jones as college and pro prospects and we actually got to see him play some decent games last year despite a disaster of an offensive coaching staff.  

Saquon being the greatest RB in NFL history doesn't mean anything for a championship (See: Barry Sanders).

We haven't seen this group play a snap in the NFL yet. The Giants line was supposed to be vastly improved last year and they still sucked. 

Quote

7.5 Yards Per Attempt says otherwise.

NFL coaches and analysts will tell you that YPA is the best indicator of a QB's efficiency and performance.

Eli's 7.5 YPA was in the top half of the league..

And oh, Eli led the #6 scoring offense in football over the final 8-gane stretch of 2018. 6th out of 32 teams. 50% of a whole season. That was still with a below-average line, before Zeitler and Remmers.

 

Nobody in the history of the world would tell you that YPA is the best indicator of a QB's efficiency and performance. By that logic a QB who throws every pass 60 yards out of bounds would be the best QB in history despite having 0 completions. It has to be viewed in conjunction with their Completion %. Eli's comp % was mediocre despite Saquon catching 91 dump-offs. 

Ra-ra Giants posts are nothing new here. And they have no defense, which accounts for a lot. 

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55 minutes ago, P@ckersFan said:

Nobody in the history of the world would tell you that YPA is the best indicator of a QB's efficiency and performance. By that logic a QB who throws every pass 60 yards out of bounds would be the best QB in history despite having 0 completions

For what it's worth, YPA is yards gained / pass attempts. Incompletions don't count. 

eg Eli's career is 55,981 yards / 7,972 attempts = 7.0 YPA (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm)

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1 minute ago, geosporin said:

For what it's worth, YPA is yards gained / pass attempts. Incompletions don't count. 

eg Eli's career is 55,981 yards / 7,972 attempts = 7.0 YPA (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm)

 

It actually counts for a lot, thank you for correcting me, I concede that point to the other poster.

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Saquon had a third of his rushing yards off of 8 runs. That's a little worrisome to me. Especially when its 1300 yards. The long runs are by far the most inconsistent stat in the game.

He also averaged almost 3 less points per game in half ppr without Odell in the roster and 5 less points per game in full ppr. I believe saquon will still dominate but might fall short of some people's expectations. Still a top 3 back to me for sure however.

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