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Brady is the best ever

That's why Brady is the GOAT and it's not close at this point 

“Somehow”...indeed.

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48 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

Subtraction by addition 

 

Repeat after me Tom Brady is the best quarterback EVER. 

I thought he was the GOAT until this season. Funnily enough, this season actually made me question that thought despite him being in the AFC Championship one year older.

 

Watching the games, it's clear how incredible the scheme is now that Brady doesn't have the same kind of zip on the ball. If Brees wins this year I actually think he has a solid case. Rings argument is for sure important but it isn't as relevant in the NFL as basketball. 

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Cowherd gives the edge to the Patriots because of the cold weather. I don't necessarily agree. Brady has experience, but I believe all of those cold weather games were played in NE. Both teams are used to playing in cold weather. Mahomes has been in the NFL two seasons, even if he was on the bench his 1st season, so he will have adapted to the cold weather already.

 

While the Chiefs do have a vertical passing game, the heart of their offense is still a West Coast scheme from Reid. Reid is all about dinking and dunking with screens, shovel passes, etc. And then he likes to take shots once he passes midfield. Takes more shots than he did while coaching the Eagles with the weapons they have though.

 

Great match up overall. Both games this weekend are going to be great match ups.

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42 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

I thought he was the GOAT until this season. Funnily enough, this season actually made me question that thought despite him being in the AFC Championship one year older.

 

Watching the games, it's clear how incredible the scheme is now that Brady doesn't have the same kind of zip on the ball. If Brees wins this year I actually think he has a solid case. Rings argument is for sure important but it isn't as relevant in the NFL as basketball. 

Tom is always the GOAT.

Also let’s not forget Brady is two years older. 

 

* today is Drew Brees birthday January 15th 1979 

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When a QB like Brees only has made it to one SB and won it, you have to wonder about his coaching and HC. Payton is hailed as a genius, but hasn't had a lot of playoff success. Their defenses continually hold them back. Whereas, you look at Belichick and he is continuously molding both the offense and defense game-to-game to play the match ups. And the level of consistency every season. 8 straight AFC championships. And there was a period of time where the NFC competition was weaker than the AFC in my opinion.

 

Brady will always be the most decorated and successful NFL QB to ever play.

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5 minutes ago, devaster said:

When a QB like Brees only has made it to one SB and won it, you have to wonder about his coaching and HC. Payton is hailed as a genius, but hasn't had a lot of playoff success. Their defenses continually hold them back. Whereas, you look at Belichick and he is continuously molding both the offense and defense game-to-game to play the match ups. And the level of consistency every season. 8 straight AFC championships. And there was a period of time where the NFC competition was weaker than the AFC in my opinion.

 

Brady will always be the most decorated and successful NFL QB to ever play.

Is* not always...

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25 minutes ago, bhawks489 said:

Is* not always...

I doubt anyone surpasses him. The NFL isn't built to sustain a dynasty for two decades, but somehow Brady and Belichick have done it.

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Just now, devaster said:

I doubt anyone surpasses him. The NFL isn't built to sustain a dynasty for two decades, but somehow Brady and Belichick have done it.

 

“Somehow”...indeed.

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2 minutes ago, devaster said:

I doubt anyone surpasses him. The NFL isn't built to sustain a dynasty for two decades, but somehow Brady and Belichick have done it.

I don't judge one player on a team sport by how many rings he has. If anything that's the GM/Coach

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2 hours ago, Gohawks said:

I thought he was the GOAT until this season. Funnily enough, this season actually made me question that thought despite him being in the AFC Championship one year older.

 

Watching the games, it's clear how incredible the scheme is now that Brady doesn't have the same kind of zip on the ball. If Brees wins this year I actually think he has a solid case. Rings argument is for sure important but it isn't as relevant in the NFL as basketball. 

 

I'll never understand this argument. The "scheme" still needs a cerebral QB to operate, it utilizes one of the strengths that makes Brady so much superior to his counterparts. He's never had the strongest arm, never been light on his feet, and has generally always had inconsistencies with the deep ball but what he's always made up for those deficiencies with is his ability to read defenses and make the correct decisions. Sure he hasn't had the most incredible year but that's mostly by standards that he has set for himself, Phil Rivers has very similar numbers to Brady this year across the board and he had been talked as a dark-horse MVP candidate whereas Brady is being put out to pasture.

 

It's the hyperbolic and hive-mind mentality of sports talk, several talking heads say "Brady's done, he can't throw anymore, yadda yadda" and that sparks tons of people to automatically come to that same conclusion. The fact this one year is causing people to rethink his legacy is crazy, it's something mostly generated by pure numbers without reconsidering everything he's done contextually throughout his years in the NFL. I've even seen quite a few people have the audacity to compare Peyton's last year to Brady's 2018... again, crazy talk 

 

There's lots of good QBs in NFL history (molten take, I know), with so many variables between them it really boils down to what you personally value most in a QB.. some like Rodgers arm talent, some like Peyton's near impossible cerebral abilities, others might prefer Montana's playoff success, many favor Brady's championships and overall drive.. We have no true GOAT, just a good round of forum/bar arguments to be made. 

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7 minutes ago, MoonBlaster said:

 

I'll never understand this argument. The "scheme" still needs a cerebral QB to operate, it utilizes one of the strengths that makes Brady so much superior to his counterparts. He's never had the strongest arm, never been light on his feet, and has generally always had inconsistencies with the deep ball but what he's always made up for those deficiencies with is his ability to read defenses and make the correct decisions. Sure he hasn't had the most incredible year but that's mostly by standards that he has set for himself, Phil Rivers has very similar numbers to Brady this year across the board and he had been talked as a dark-horse MVP candidate whereas Brady is being put out to pasture.

 

It's the hyperbolic and hive-mind mentality of sports talk, several talking heads say "Brady's done, he can't throw anymore, yadda yadda" and that sparks tons of people to automatically come to that same conclusion. The fact this one year is causing people to rethink his legacy is crazy, it's something mostly generated by pure numbers without reconsidering everything he's done contextually throughout his years in the NFL. I've even seen quite a few people have the audacity to compare Peyton's last year to Brady's 2018... again, crazy talk 

 

There's lots of good QBs in NFL history (molten take, I know), with so many variables between them it really boils down to what you personally value most in a QB.. some like Rodgers arm talent, some like Peyton's near impossible cerebral abilities, others might prefer Montana's playoff success, many favor Brady's championships and overall drive.. We have no true GOAT, just a good round of forum/bar arguments to be made. 

There's no one criteria to be made. The NFL is a lot harder to evaluate the GOAT than the NBA for example. The game has changed drastically and one player has far less impact. When it comes to rings, they're pretty much irrelevant if you are not a QB because your single impact is so small. However, they have to be considered at such a valuable position. 

 

Being coachable and a great leader is an extremely important and valuable trait. However so is overall talent and performance. It's hard to say but I really don't see why Brees wouldn't win 5 rings with Pats. Rodgers is a different story. I think he isn't a great leader which is part of the issue.

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33 minutes ago, devaster said:

Matt Cassel was definitely not "cerebral". An argument against the Patriots scheme needing a "cerebral" QB. The scheme has more to do with Belichick than anything.

 

Yes, the infamous Matt Cassel argument. Go look at Cassel's 2008 numbers, they were pretty rough, definitely not Brady like numbers at all (they're statistically on par with Brady's worst season(s) in the NFL). I also remember watching those games and Cassel wasn't asked to do nearly as much as Brady is asked to do on a yearly basis, the Patriots were winning games despite Cassel being at QB not because of him.  I mean he had less than half the amount of TDs Brady had the year prior with a similar roster... and this is in a league where QBs are capable of over-producing on any given year.. look at Case Keenum, Nick Foles, Derek Carr (IMO), Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kerry Collins, Jake Plummer, etc.

 

I understand that this is the quintessential "scheme" argument, but out of context it's not a very valid point. It really revolves around the idea that Belichick is a great coach and you need to turn a blind eye to what Brady has done from an execution stand-point through out the years... I fail to see how that is a knock on Brady, by that logic we can only say a QB is great if he plays for a bad or mediocre coach.

 

32 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

There's no one criteria to be made. The NFL is a lot harder to evaluate the GOAT than the NBA for example. The game has changed drastically and one player has far less impact. When it comes to rings, they're pretty much irrelevant if you are not a QB because your single impact is so small. However, they have to be considered at such a valuable position. 

 

Being coachable and a great leader is an extremely important and valuable trait. However so is overall talent and performance. It's hard to say but I really don't see why Brees wouldn't win 5 rings with Pats. Rodgers is a different story. I think he isn't a great leader which is part of the issue.

 

Big time, especially in a best of 1 playoff format.. Sure, Brees may have won 5 rings with the Pats, he may have also won 0 we'll never know. Just like what if Diggs didn't catch that ball last year, what if McCarthy had a pair against the Seahawks, or what if countless things had played out differently both for and against the Patriots in their Super Bowls. It really is hard to dictate the GOAT in certain regards, but ultimately we can only argue with the facts that we actually have.

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If the Saints didn't botch that Diggs play last season I'm confident the Eagles would have lost to them. And I say that as an Eagles fan. Saints were on fire last season and the Eagles had just barely beaten the Falcons. They faced a vulnerable Vikings team and pounded them. I think the Saints would have taken home the SB last season if not for that Diggs catch.

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Anyone who tries to use the Cassel argument doesn't do their research. His numbers were pedestrian based on the team he was surrounded with and the Patriots offense struggled mightily against the good defenses they played that year.

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2 minutes ago, devaster said:

If the Saints didn't botch that Diggs play last season I'm confident the Eagles would have lost to them. And I say that as an Eagles fan. Saints were on fire last season and the Eagles had just barely beaten the Falcons. They faced a vulnerable Vikings team and pounded them. I think the Saints would have taken home the SB last season if not for that Diggs catch.

 

Yeah but that's kind of using loose logic/speculation. Like I could say "well the Patriots had beaten the Saints last year (and Brady shredded them apart) so I think if Diggs hadn't made that play the Patriots would've won the Super Bowl against the Saints." and it would hold just as much merit. 

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2 minutes ago, ThreadKiller said:

Anyone who tries to use the Cassel argument doesn't do their research. His numbers were pedestrian based on the team he was surrounded with and the Patriots offense struggled mightily against the good defenses they played that year.

They finished 5th in yards and 8th in scoring but alright...

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Yeah but they also had as many rushing TDs as they did passing (21) and nearly 2300 yards rushing as a team. You compare that to the two years that sandwich the 2008 season and it's a pretty substantial difference.

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3 minutes ago, MoonBlaster said:

Yeah but they also had as many rushing TDs as they did passing (21) and nearly 2300 yards rushing as a team. You compare that to the two years that sandwich the 2008 season and it's a pretty substantial difference.

I mean... Brady set an NFL record for passing TD's. That is a statistical outlier season-to-season. During a typical season Brady would throw for 30-35 with that set of personnel they had. Cassel still managed 2/3 the production.

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It will be interesting to see whether Reid avoids the stupidity of the Chargers’ coaching staff and actually attacks the primary weakness of the Patriots D: their run defense.

 

Since Week 11, the Patriots have been the worst team in the NFL at stopping runs from 11 personnel - both in terms of success rate and YPC allowed.  Gordon attempted a whopping 4 carries from 11 in last week’s game.

 

It’s time to step right up, D-Will (67% success rate; 5.2 ypc).

 

 

Edited by BMcP
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You see Brady yell at his receivers a lot. He isn't yelling because they ran the wrong route on paper. He's yelling because they didn't see what coverage dictated and then wasn't where they should be. Fundamentally very very different when judging Qbs. He will throw it in the feet so you can't catch it, or way over top so you can't. Because he avoided a sack and/or a intentional ground. Meanwhile he knows that receiver didn't see the option correctly. Yet his stats will suffer, and he's fooled you stat geeks. That is the essence of Brady. He has one stat he truly cares about....

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16 hours ago, Gohawks said:

They finished 5th in yards and 8th in scoring but alright...

 

It's clear you haven't looked much into the numbers before dismissing something that you're mistaken on. As I said in the comment you posted, look at what they did against the good teams.

 

Another thing that's irresponsible is looking at NFL.com rankings and going by them without looking at context. Patriots were 5th in yards in 2008. Ok? Tell me about field position. Tell me about which games those yards came in and the circumstances. They were 8th in scoring? Cool. Tell me about the games the points were scored in.

 

If everyone went by your black and white grading. We would say "Welp, the KC Chiefs are ranked as the 3rd overall in total defense on NFL.com. I guess they're the 3rd best defense, huh?

 

Below is each opponent in order along with their record and Cassel's basic passing stats (completion/attempts, passing yards, TD, INT). As you can, the passing game struggled a lot. Especially when facing the good teams. I say this as a Patriots fan who has intently watched every game for the past 15-20 years. To say the Patriots offense didn't skip a beat when Cassel took over in 2008 and that it's the system is irresponsible.

 

KC (2-14) 13-18, 152 yds, 1 TD

NYJ (9-7) 16-23, 165 yds, 0 TD

MIA (11-5) 19-31, 131 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT

SF (7-9) 22-32, 259 yds, 1 TD, 2 INT

SD (8-8) 22-38, 203 yds, 0 TD, 1 INT

DEN (8-8) 18-24, 185 yds, 3 TD

STL (2-14) 21-33, 267 yds, 1 TD, 2 INT

IND (12-4) 25-34, 204, 0 TD, 1 INT

BUF (7-9 22-34, 234, 0 TD

NYJ (9-7) 30-51, 400 yds, 3 TD

MIA (11-5) 30-43, 415 yds, 3 TD, 1 INT

PIT (12-4) 19-39, 169 yds, 0 TD, 2 INT

SEA (4-12) 26-44, 268 yds, 1 TD

OAK (5-11) 18-30, 218 yds, 4 TD, 1 INT

ARI (9-7) 20-36, 345 yds, 3 TD

BUF (7-9) 6-8, 78 yds, 0 TD

Edited by ThreadKiller
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