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Brady is the best ever

That's why Brady is the GOAT and it's not close at this point 

“Somehow”...indeed.

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3 hours ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

It's clear you haven't looked much into the numbers before dismissing something that you're mistaken on. As I said in the comment you posted, look at what they did against the good teams.

 

Another thing that's irresponsible is looking at NFL.com rankings and going by them without looking at context. Patriots were 5th in yards in 2008. Ok? Tell me about field position. Tell me about which games those yards came in and the circumstances. They were 8th in scoring? Cool. Tell me about the games the points were scored in.

 

If everyone went by your black and white grading. We would say "Welp, the KC Chiefs are ranked as the 3rd overall in total defense on NFL.com. I guess they're the 3rd best defense, huh?

 

Below is each opponent in order along with their record and Cassel's basic passing stats (completion/attempts, passing yards, TD, INT). As you can, the passing game struggled a lot. Especially when facing the good teams. I say this as a Patriots fan who has intently watched every game for the past 15-20 years. To say the Patriots offense didn't skip a beat when Cassel took over in 2008 and that it's the system is irresponsible.

 

KC (2-14) 13-18, 152 yds, 1 TD

NYJ (9-7) 16-23, 165 yds, 0 TD

MIA (11-5) 19-31, 131 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT

SF (7-9) 22-32, 259 yds, 1 TD, 2 INT

SD (8-8) 22-38, 203 yds, 0 TD, 1 INT

DEN (8-8) 18-24, 185 yds, 3 TD

STL (2-14) 21-33, 267 yds, 1 TD, 2 INT

IND (12-4) 25-34, 204, 0 TD, 1 INT

BUF (7-9 22-34, 234, 0 TD

NYJ (9-7) 30-51, 400 yds, 3 TD

MIA (11-5) 30-43, 415 yds, 3 TD, 1 INT

PIT (12-4) 19-39, 169 yds, 0 TD, 2 INT

SEA (4-12) 26-44, 268 yds, 1 TD

OAK (5-11) 18-30, 218 yds, 4 TD, 1 INT

ARI (9-7) 20-36, 345 yds, 3 TD

BUF (7-9) 6-8, 78 yds, 0 TD

Struggled a lot as in dropping back to back 400 yard games against division rivals with winning records and 350 and 3 against a Cardinals team with a winning record?  The dude put up total stud numbers for the most important games of the year (divisional). He dominated second half of the season minus the hiccup against PIT. Patriots still finished 12th in total passing yards and 13th in passing TDs while being 25th in INTs. Not only that, he put up a top 10 QBR.

 

It basically took Belichick half the season to turn a mediocre QB into a star via your stats. So thanks for the info. 

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Think some of you are discounting what Belichick did with Cassel far too much. The Colts lost Peyton for a season and went back to being insignificant and winning 4? games. Then Luck comes in and they have a QB and are back to winning 10+ games a season while Luck is healthy.

 

The Patriots still won 11 games with Cassel and that is all due to Belichick. Sure, losing Brady cost them the division and a couple wins, but almost any other season the 11-win Patriots that didn't win their division would still make the playoffs.

 

Belichick is the best coach in NFL history for me and it isn't close. His job in Cleveland is often overlooked as well.

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29 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

Struggled a lot as in dropping back to back 400 yard games against division rivals with winning records and 350 and 3 against a Cardinals team with a winning record?  The dude put up total stud numbers for the most important games of the year (divisional). He dominated second half of the season minus the hiccup against PIT. Patriots still finished 12th in total passing yards and 13th in passing TDs while being 25th in INTs. Not only that, he put up a top 10 QBR.

 

It basically took Belichick half the season to turn a mediocre QB into a star via your stats. So thanks for the info. 

 

 

LOL. Ok. You're right. the 2008 Patriots didn't drop off at all at QB.

 

Where do these people come from....

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1 minute ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

 

LOL. Ok. You're right. the 2008 Patriots didn't drop off at all at QB.

 

Where do these people come from....

No one is making that claim. Not a single person thinks they didn't drop off. You're basically creating a straw man here. 

 

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22 minutes ago, devaster said:

Think some of you are discounting what Belichick did with Cassel far too much. The Colts lost Peyton for a season and went back to being insignificant and winning 4? games. Then Luck comes in and they have a QB and are back to winning 10+ games a season while Luck is healthy.

 

The Patriots still won 11 games with Cassel and that is all due to Belichick. Sure, losing Brady cost them the division and a couple wins, but almost any other season the 11-win Patriots that didn't win their division would still make the playoffs.

 

Belichick is the best coach in NFL history for me and it isn't close. His job in Cleveland is often overlooked as well.

 

Well put. Belichick did an amazing job as did McDaniels that year with Cassel. As they did last year when Brady was suspended. That is a compliment to the coaching and organization but in NO WAY diminishes Brady's value. To sit there and say that Cassel replicated Tom Brady in 2008 is amazing in itself. And cherry picking a few hugh statistical games by Cassel while ignoring the majority (bad ones) is irresponsible.

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Just now, Gohawks said:

No one is making that claim. Not a single person thinks they didn't drop off. You're basically creating a straw man here. 

 

 

Then why are you trying to create an argument with me? I said there was a drop off from Brady to Cassel. You're arguing with the content of my post. That would imply that you disagree with me. Unless you're just being a troll?

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1 minute ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

Then why are you trying to create an argument with me? I said there was a drop off from Brady to Cassel. You're arguing with the content of my post. That would imply that you disagree with me. Unless you're just being a troll?

No you didn't say that. You said, and I quote "Anyone who tries to use the Cassel argument doesn't do their research. His numbers were pedestrian based on the team he was surrounded with and the Patriots offense struggled mightily against the good defenses they played that year."

 

The Cassel argument isn't that he is better than Brady. Again, no one thinks that. The argument is that they were able to take JAG and still win double digit games. Also, his numbers were not pedestrian as he did quite well in basically every QB metric and had a dominant second half. 

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20 hours ago, Gohawks said:

They finished 5th in yards and 8th in scoring but alright...

You said this in response to me after I mentioned Cassel's numbers falling off from where Brady was. I took this as you disagreeing, otherwise why be the contrarian?

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14 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

No you didn't say that. You said, and I quote "Anyone who tries to use the Cassel argument doesn't do their research. His numbers were pedestrian based on the team he was surrounded with and the Patriots offense struggled mightily against the good defenses they played that year."

 

The Cassel argument isn't that he is better than Brady. Again, no one thinks that. The argument is that they were able to take JAG and still win double digit games. Also, his numbers were not pedestrian as he did quite well in basically every QB metric and had a dominant second half. 

I know exactly what I said. My saying anyone who uses the Cassel argument "to imply that due to the Patriots going 11-5, Cassel was plug and play and the offense didn't skip a beat" doesn't do their research. Context is your friend. So yes, I did say that. They are one in the same.

 

And yes, 21 TDs and 11 INTs are pedestrian with the team that was around. Did Cassel do well? Yes he absolutely did. No debate there as he certainly exceeded expectations as a backup QB. The offense did struggle against the good defenses they played that year. That's not disputable, look it up (hint I already shared the numbers that prove this). His "dominant" 2nd half? 1/4 of his TD passes in one game against the 5-11 Raiders? And 1/3 of the remaining TD passes in the second meeting with division rivals (one of which finishing at 9-7?). I have a higher standard for what I label as dominance, but to each their own.

 

What are we even talking about it here? Stop trying to stir an argument. All I said was the Patriots offense was not as good with Cassel and that his overall numbers were skewed due to some blowup games (mostly against weak teams). These facts I have made are not disputable, so quit trying to create an argument out of thin air.

 

Do you watch every Patriots game? Was the fall off from Brady to Cassel noticeable in 2008? Hint: It was extremely noticeable and THAT's the point.

 

By the way, I'll repeat that anyone who implies Brady is a system QB and that you can plug Cassel in doesn't do their research. At least not effectively.

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5 minutes ago, ThreadKiller said:

I know exactly what I said. My saying anyone who uses the Cassel argument "to imply that due to the Patriots going 11-5, Cassel was plug and play and the offense didn't skip a beat" doesn't do their research. Context is your friend. So yes, I did say that. They are one in the same.

 

And yes, 21 TDs and 11 INTs are pedestrian with the team that was around. Did Cassel do well? Yes he absolutely did. No debate there. The offense did struggle against the good defenses they played that year. LOOK IT UP. 1/4 of his TD passes in one game against the 5.11 Raiders? And 1/3 of the remaining TD passes in the second meeting with division rivals (one finishing at 9-7). Cool.

 

What are we even talking about it here? Stop trying to stir an argument. All I said was the Patriots offense was not as good with Cassel and that his overall numbers were skewed due to some blowup games (mostly against weak teams). These facts I have made are not disputable, so quit trying to create an argument out of thin air.

 

Do you watch every Patriots game? Was the fall off from Brady to Cassel noticeable in 2008? Hint: It was extremely noticeable and THAT's the point.

 

By the way, I'll repeat that anyone who implies Brady is a system QB and that you can plug Cassel in doesn't do their research. At least not effectively.

The argument was never he wan't good. The entire argument was in regards to the GOAT. Sure they didn't make the playoffs by some absolutely terrible luck but they still won 11 games which is more than Brady won when he came back. Thus, the argument is Patriots plugged some random dude into the starting lineup and they still did good.

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1 minute ago, Gohawks said:

The argument was never he wan't good. The entire argument was in regards to the GOAT. Sure they didn't make the playoffs by some absolutely terrible luck but they still won 11 games which is more than Brady won when he came back. Thus, the argument is Patriots plugged some random dude into the starting lineup and they still did good.

 

I know what the debate was and what I responded to. Seems like you don't which is why you're attempting to argue with me over something that I said that truthfully isn't debatable.

 

Cassel's numbers were pedestrian based on the talent around him.

The team winning 11 games had a lot to do with coaching and the defense.

The passing game led by Cassel struggled against good defenses in 2008. 

 

Those above points can't really be debated with logic or fact. So I don't understand why you keep trying?

 

2007: Brady (4806 yds, 50 TD, 8 INT | 88.5 QBR)

2008: Cassel (3693 yds, 21 TD, 11 INT | 65.3 QBR)

2009: Brady (4398, 28 TD, 13 INT | 73.2 QBR)

 

How can anyone using logic debate that with the supporting cast NE had and sandwiched between 2007 Brady and a 2009 Brady (coming off bad ACL injury) 2008 wasn't a pedestrian year from a passing offense standpoint? When I say pedestrian, I am not discounting how well Cassel did to come in and win games. Because he did a great job, and the But to say it wasn't pedestrian is just misinformed.

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Those numbers really aren't that pedestrian. Brady's 2007 is simply an outlier season. Cassel flourished in Belichick's system and under his coaching. So does Brady. Brady is obviously better and a part of the equation to why the Patriots have been so successful. I'll personally always lean towards Belichick more heavily though.

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Comparing the 07 "Eff you" Patriots who were trying to run up the score on everyone to what they normally do is kind of silly.

 

Compare Cassel 08 to Brady 09.  That's the difference Brady makes. 

 

Also consider that Cassel didn't start the first game, and played the last game in a windstorm with 75MPH gusts

 

Excluding those games, Cassel's 16 game pace would have went for about 4000 yards, 23 TDs, 13 INTs.

 

The next year Brady went for about 4400 yards, 28 TDs and 13 INTs.

 

So your GOAT is about 400 yards and 5 TDs better than Matt Cassel.

 

blogs-the-feed-2013-09-24-peyton-manning

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1 hour ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

I know what the debate was and what I responded to. Seems like you don't which is why you're attempting to argue with me over something that I said that truthfully isn't debatable.

 

Cassel's numbers were pedestrian based on the talent around him.

The team winning 11 games had a lot to do with coaching and the defense.

The passing game led by Cassel struggled against good defenses in 2008. 

 

Those above points can't really be debated with logic or fact. So I don't understand why you keep trying?

 

2007: Brady (4806 yds, 50 TD, 8 INT | 88.5 QBR)

2008: Cassel (3693 yds, 21 TD, 11 INT | 65.3 QBR)

2009: Brady (4398, 28 TD, 13 INT | 73.2 QBR)

 

How can anyone using logic debate that with the supporting cast NE had and sandwiched between 2007 Brady and a 2009 Brady (coming off bad ACL injury) 2008 wasn't a pedestrian year from a passing offense standpoint? When I say pedestrian, I am not discounting how well Cassel did to come in and win games. Because he did a great job, and the But to say it wasn't pedestrian is just misinformed.

giphy.gif

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2 hours ago, Gohawks said:

No you didn't say that. You said, and I quote "Anyone who tries to use the Cassel argument doesn't do their research. His numbers were pedestrian based on the team he was surrounded with and the Patriots offense struggled mightily against the good defenses they played that year."

 

The Cassel argument isn't that he is better than Brady. Again, no one thinks that. The argument is that they were able to take JAG and still win double digit games. Also, his numbers were not pedestrian as he did quite well in basically every QB metric and had a dominant second half. 

 

Arguing with “ThreadKiller” is a vortex of suckitude.

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2 hours ago, ThreadKiller said:

I know exactly what I said. My saying anyone who uses the Cassel argument "to imply that due to the Patriots going 11-5, Cassel was plug and play and the offense didn't skip a beat" doesn't do their research. Context is your friend. So yes, I did say that. They are one in the same.

 

And yes, 21 TDs and 11 INTs are pedestrian with the team that was around. Did Cassel do well? Yes he absolutely did. No debate there as he certainly exceeded expectations as a backup QB. The offense did struggle against the good defenses they played that year. That's not disputable, look it up (hint I already shared the numbers that prove this). His "dominant" 2nd half? 1/4 of his TD passes in one game against the 5-11 Raiders? And 1/3 of the remaining TD passes in the second meeting with division rivals (one of which finishing at 9-7?). I have a higher standard for what I label as dominance, but to each their own.

 

What are we even talking about it here? Stop trying to stir an argument. All I said was the Patriots offense was not as good with Cassel and that his overall numbers were skewed due to some blowup games (mostly against weak teams). These facts I have made are not disputable, so quit trying to create an argument out of thin air.

 

Do you watch every Patriots game? Was the fall off from Brady to Cassel noticeable in 2008? Hint: It was extremely noticeable and THAT's the point.

 

By the way, I'll repeat that anyone who implies Brady is a system QB and that you can plug Cassel in doesn't do their research. At least not effectively.

 

That was a misquote.

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9 minutes ago, BMcP said:

 

Arguing with “ThreadKiller” is a vortex of suckitude.

 

Funny thing is, I'm not the one creating the argument here. Maybe I was trying to call you out the other day. But this one today is ridiculous.

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13 minutes ago, Iron-cock said:

Comparing the 07 "Eff you" Patriots who were trying to run up the score on everyone to what they normally do is kind of silly.

 

Compare Cassel 08 to Brady 09.  That's the difference Brady makes. 

 

Also consider that Cassel didn't start the first game, and played the last game in a windstorm with 75MPH gusts

 

Excluding those games, Cassel's 16 game pace would have went for about 4000 yards, 23 TDs, 13 INTs.

 

The next year Brady went for about 4400 yards, 28 TDs and 13 INTs.

 

So your GOAT is about 400 yards and 5 TDs better than Matt Cassel.

 

 

That's kinda cherry picking scenarios to benefit one side of the argument by extrapolating stats and hand picking the 2009 season as your comparison because Brady was essentially too good in 2007 (also completely ignoring the fact that Cassel was sacked 47(!) times in '08 compared to 16 for Brady in 09). I mean in 2009 the entire coaching staff was changed up (including McDaniels going to coach the Broncos) and Brady was coming off an ACL tear.. we can always nit pick scenarios to benefit our argument, you see?

 

You could also just as easily make the argument that 09 should be viewed as the negative outlier for Brady because in 2010 he went right back to throwing 36 TDs, only 4 INTs and just under 4K yards... all with substantially less attempts than in 09.

 

 

Meanwhile, this thread has gone wildly off the rails, hand up, that one is partially on me for getting into the whole Brady "scheme" thing. But anyways, I'm really curious to see what defense adjustment Andy Reid makes compared to his team's efforts vs. the Patriots in the regular season... Also if Damien Williams can come close to replicating what Kareem Hunt has been able to do against the Patriots. 

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18 hours ago, PizzaBeerFF said:

You see Brady yell at his receivers a lot. He isn't yelling because they ran the wrong route on paper. He's yelling because they didn't see what coverage dictated and then wasn't where they should be. Fundamentally very very different when judging Qbs. He will throw it in the feet so you can't catch it, or way over top so you can't. Because he avoided a sack and/or a intentional ground. Meanwhile he knows that receiver didn't see the option correctly. Yet his stats will suffer, and he's fooled you stat geeks. That is the essence of Brady. He has one stat he truly cares about....

I don't think that's why Brady was under throwing receivers lol

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3 hours ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

Well put. Belichick did an amazing job as did McDaniels that year with Cassel. As they did last year when Brady was suspended. That is a compliment to the coaching and organization but in NO WAY diminishes Brady's value. To sit there and say that Cassel replicated Tom Brady in 2008 is amazing in itself. And cherry picking a few hugh statistical games by Cassel while ignoring the majority (bad ones) is irresponsible.

Leveon bell is a great running back. No arguments anywhere. But! Many backs can be put into that steelers system and excel. Look at basically every steelers RB over the last few years.

 

Same thing. Not taking away how good Brady is but that organization is miles above the others

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26 minutes ago, bhawks489 said:

Leveon bell is a great running back. No arguments anywhere. But! Many backs can be put into that steelers system and excel. Look at basically every steelers RB over the last few years.

 

Same thing. Not taking away how good Brady is but that organization is miles above the others

This is it. No one can honestly say much more than this definitively. So much of sports is situational, it is hard(and a waste of time and energy) to tease out which player is best versus which situation is best versus which combination of situation and player is best.

 

One could convincingly argue both sides of the question of whether there are several players who could have stepped into Brady’s situation and been as or more successful than he has been, and that several of his SB wins are due partially or mostly to luck, circumstance, defense, kicking, botched refereeing, etc. 

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