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3 hours ago, Tom Chambers said:

1- Most leagues don't interfere with trades so long as they're not collusion.

the reality is that this is just an empty phrase. When it was just "buddy" leagues in the early 2000s, ok maybe that's a usable rule. But as a commish, unless you have an ongoing track of two managers proposing absurd trades to one another, punting h2h points (or roto points), dropping FAs to bid when the other has held max money etc... what does it actually mean to prove collusion? Ask for everyone's email passwords and have them UPS their cell phones to you for review? Hope they confess like bad guys in a cartoon? At the end of the day, a terribly one sided trade is just damage to the league, period. I don't get the lesson of your AD trade story... everyone send out awful lowball offers all season and what?? hope one gets accepted ... hope 2 get accepted? How about if they all do? What's the league then? Garbage. Or was your point that in the end random luck prevailed and thank god the perceived obvious better player didn't perform versus the major breakout player that happened to continue to perform? so any trade is fine therefore?. Collusion or no, that league will fold. Now I'm not upset you made that trade offer at all, but I don't think it's right to think there shouldn't be some transparent way to evaluate trades in a league (votes, protests, metrics).

Yahoo is basically acting as an "exchange" for season long bets on pools of player stats. You can't go into an internal review of that business, much less outside review/audit and say "about half the time there's collusion... we think". That's facilitating fraud. You think if you put out a bid for a stock on an exchange that's 20% off the last trade and it gets picked off/met by someone else that won't get an immediate investigation? Doesn't matter if it's "collusion". It's detriment to the market the exchange is tasked to oversee. I do think you could make a quantitative validation model for fantasy trades (same as exchanges have for accepted price submissions). It may only facilitate one for ones (like within a range of preseason rank/draft AND within a range of in-season rank), but if you had printed rules on how it worked, it'd be great i think. To me this should be the focus of a fantasy service for money that wants to keep trades and pass reviews of 'fairness'. (regularly updated 'rest of season auction'/$ values of all players, although high maintenance, could allow for 2 for 1 and 4 for 4 etc trades)

Anyway, this also goes back to my highlighting that an online provider, that's been collecting money on these games for a while, has already been down this road... and they have zero trades allowed. No h2h. Not even TOs in the roto. And weekly sets so it'd be pretty standout even if someone tried forcing roto points away/to another manager. I doubt that's the only game style they offer because of demand. I'd guess they just want to say that their rules are tough as heck to manipulate when the audit comes through.

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I mean, I don't really care if a league is "garbage" or not. It's a $250 yahoo public league, I'm there to win my $1250 and keep it moving. Last year I profited over $4k across a bunch. 

I have my "real" league with friends that has been going for over a decade, everything else is just random leagues with random people scratch an itch and make a profit doing it. 

My point, though, is the guy saying that you can't let people "steal" your money by cheating. That's just dumb, as most trades you don't like don't have anything to do with cheating. It's the same guy that thought the wizards played in Seattle, so I get the sense he's gonna have the impression a lot of people "stole" from him come May. 

Not to mention that it's silly because Hield legitimately outplayed AD after the ASB under H2h settings anyway. 

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7 hours ago, Del Rio said:

what alternatives are you guys looking into

i tossed a line into my first nfc game. But without having ever seen the draft interface, etc (and it is basically just single flavor layout) I'd probably be looking for more RW posted majority approval leagues, hopefully on yahoo (i finally got all my $ leagues into yahoo last season, and wanna keep it that way).

I have about 10 leagues i join/re-join or co-run each season (4-10 years going in each) plus 4-8 randoms (like yahoo cash), and I'd help run/run some new league safe based, y! leagues (maj approval of course)... but no way i want to run a 'trade whoever', 4-6 adds/week, unlimited season move stream fest. It's just a headache and you'll have gross turnover even if you get it filled. But if people want to do a weekly that drafts at least 190 total players, I'm down to run that (hash out the rest: roto, h2h, snake, auct, i'm flexible), or frankly a couple. Alt to weekly, i'd run 'total moves' limit leagues (like 40/season) for roto and h2h w daily, again w deep drafts (again, just to minimize 'running to the FA' pool as a focus).

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On 9/17/2019 at 5:26 AM, Tom Chambers said:

Because half the time it's not collusion.  Last year, AD demands his trade and the AD guy panics.  I'm in second at the time, I'm like f--- it, Buddy has been a top 40 player, let me see if I can assume AD's risk in exchange for losing Buddy's pretty replaceable stat profile.  The guy bites, he accepts.  I now have Harden and AD on the same team, I'm feeling smug.

One dude in particular goes crazy.  "Collusion!  That's crazy!  You could get way more for AD! You guys are cheating! Bet you know each other in real life!"  He contacts Yahoo, Yahoo vetoes the trade.  In the end, we know that AD never really was consistent again and Buddy kept up doing exactly what he had been doing and I took the championship.  So it LITERALLY couldn't have worked out better for me.  The whiner might've saved my season from myself.  But it was still whining.

More than that, if you play in multiple leagues, like 10-15, and you make a lot of trades, it only takes a small number of people to complain about things like that before Yahoo will start looking at your account with some suspicion.  I have absolutely no idea, but if like 5-6 different owners, across different leagues, accuse the same owner of collusion, they might start to take any individual accusation more seriously.  At least, it's a risk that's annoying to have to even think about, because some people get upset at other teams making trades.  

 

Theres usually one team with a legit reason to trade, then the other has absolutely no realistic response to why they would make a horrific trade.

Most players who make bad trades say, " I like him hes my fav player and I do what I want", instead of ," my team needs to punt blks and fg% so hield is going to help me and I'm an 8th seed needing to punt more to compete. Except it doesn't work like that in most cases. The person on the bad end of the trade is usually out of contention and skewing the league horribly for no good reason whatsoever. This is where some disagree with me: "taking advantage of a very stupid player is collusion, or at the very least, unacceptable". That's a big problem and not okay under any means because a cheating team can just play dumb, and cheat and it wont technically be cheating, but it has the same effect on the league so it doesn't matter. Criminals always have some excuse. Tinkering on the edge of cheating in fantasy basketball with strangers on the internet, even if not cheating, is pretty much cheating.

AD for Hield if end of season would not be a bad trade, and if after the trade request, yeah that would be considered whining to complain about that... you gave too fair of an example. It's case by case, and saying that people who complain about other teams trading are whining is just beyond idiotic. Maybe I join one of your leagues and trade DeAngelo russel for steph curry when steph is hurt for 1 week to the last place team as he says "DLO THE UOCOMING STA! Steph gona sit DLO da man now" after one 40 pt game for DLO. What are you just gonna sit back like a little puss boy and let it happen?? While I say stop whining it's only $30!??? 

You gave an example of a fair trade (if end of season), but that's not the typical trade that causes leagues to fall apart. 

Either way, that's why I only do league votes. To weed out out the inevitable 1 or 2 children who don't play fair and ruin fantasy basketball. 

You also said half of the time it's not collusion, so half of the time it is? Lmao. Half of the time is A LOT. 10% of the time is A LOT. 1 bad trade is a lot.

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On 9/21/2019 at 1:00 PM, johnval1362 said:

AD for Hield if end of season would not be a bad trade, and if after the trade request, yeah that would be considered whining to complain about that... you gave too fair of an example.

The cheapest leagues I play in are typically $250, so I can count the number of times someone has honestly accused other teams of colluding.  Because no one is making trades for their favorite players in those leagues, and they're typically playing in a handful of leagues so they don't see players as anything but stat profiles, really.

On 9/21/2019 at 1:00 PM, johnval1362 said:

 

You also said half of the time it's not collusion, so half of the time it is? Lmao. Half of the time is A LOT. 10% of the time is A LOT. 1 bad trade is a lot.

Well, considering I've only ever seen it even accused of like four times, yeah.  The point is it's not for you to decide if a trade is good or bad, because then owners will complain if the top team makes a trade that clearly makes them better- even if it makes the weaker team better, too.  This isn't football, it's not like you're just looking at fantasy points.  If someone leading the league is killing in points and threes, but average in rebounds, they can trade away some extra points and threes to shore up their rebounding and get above average in it, while the other team gets help in their points and threes and sacrifices a bit in rebounds.  Meanwhile, the #2, #3, and #4 teams can start complaining about collusion because they know the #1 just got even better.  They convince just like two more people and there ya go, a perfectly fine trade was vetoed because other contenders didn't want the top dog getting better.  That's the bull**** that I just don't have time for.

 

On topic, I looked through my old texts with a friend and saw that I told him pro leagues were open last year on AUGUST 31ST.  It's now September 24th and you still can't make a private cash league.  What the f--- are these people doing?  I've seen a few posters talk about potential legal issues, but their football leagues are open.  Between ESPN's continued clusterf*** (their rankings now are just comical, why even rank players if that's what you're gonna do?) and Yahoo dropping the ball, a new platform needs to come up.  Fantrax is cool, but they need to other public money leagues, too. 

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2 hours ago, Tom Chambers said:

On topic, I looked through my old texts with a friend and saw that I told him pro leagues were open last year on AUGUST 31ST.  It's now September 24th and you still can't make a private cash league.  What the f--- are these people doing?  I've seen a few posters talk about potential legal issues, but their football leagues are open.  Between ESPN's continued clusterf*** (their rankings now are just comical, why even rank players if that's what you're gonna do?) and Yahoo dropping the ball, a new platform needs to come up.  Fantrax is cool, but they need to other public money leagues, too. 

 

I can't imagine even Yahoo is so incompetent that they would pass up making decent money off commissioning fees from their Pro Leagues ... right?

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