2020 MLB Sign Stealing Discussion

[sportsfreak2744 779]

Just now, Mikewastaken said:

IMO you're entering the slippery slope of what constitutes an advantage, unfair or otherwise. IF he has a medical deficiency and IF he takes HGH to correct that deficiency I don't see how it's all that different from getting LASIK or even cortisone injections to bring down chronic swelling. Was CC's monstrous knee brace an advantage? He couldn't pitch without it. 

 

It just seems to me that while a knee brace would help you recover some of your ability thanks to the stabilization, HGH would more than compensate for Trout's thyroid issue.

In other words:

CC no brace is at 70%, brace gets him to 85%, or 15% closer to "normal" 100%.

Trout thyroid issue is 80-90% himself, HGH gets him to 120% of himself.

 

DISCLAIMER: I'm not speaking to this as if I know for sure Trout does this, what Trout's symptoms are, or as someone that fully understands all HGH can do for the human body. I'm posting this discuss and learn where I can.

[fletch44 1,531]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/white-sox/2020/1/17/21070686/sign-stealing-jack-mcdowell-tony-larussa-comiskey-park

[Mikewastaken 443]

19 minutes ago, sportsfreak2744 said:

 

It just seems to me that while a knee brace would help you recover some of your ability thanks to the stabilization, HGH would more than compensate for Trout's thyroid issue.

In other words:

CC no brace is at 70%, brace gets him to 85%, or 15% closer to "normal" 100%.

Trout thyroid issue is 80-90% himself, HGH gets him to 120% of himself.

 

DISCLAIMER: I'm not speaking to this as if I know for sure Trout does this, what Trout's symptoms are, or as someone that fully understands all HGH can do for the human body. I'm posting this discuss and learn where I can.

 

What if the knee brace let CC plant his leg just like old times and he was up there a Cy Young contender again? Unlikely perhaps, but once you start trying to guesstimate how much one thing or another is helping someone, and drawing lines in the sand as to what is fair or unfair, you're well down the slippery slope.

 

Something that struck me when Andy Pettitte explained away his HGH use as a way to recover faster was how that was deemed "not ok" but using cortisone for the exact same reason - speeding recovery - was socially acceptable within the game. 

 

Bernie Williams started out wearing aviator-style glasses but midway through his career got LASIK. “The next day after going back to the doctor, I was seeing 20-15. Before, I was 20-40.” Vision is one of, if not the most important attributes to being a successful hitter, and he got his improved to well beyond what we consider 100%. Was he cheating? https://nypost.com/2000/02/17/bernie-can-see-better-days-ahead/

Edited January 17, 2020 by Mikewastaken

[kmoore1521 1,461]

37 minutes ago, Mikewastaken said:

IMO you're entering the slippery slope of what constitutes an advantage, unfair or otherwise. IF he has a medical deficiency and IF he takes HGH to correct that deficiency I don't see how it's all that different from getting LASIK or even cortisone injections to bring down chronic swelling. Was CC's monstrous knee brace an advantage? He couldn't pitch without it. 

 

HGH isnt as black and white as a knee brace my man, or even cortisone injections for swelling, not a good comparison imo, lots of factors go into what HGH does to each individual using it with regards to the extent of the effects it has on ones body

 

EDIT: saw you responded to some others so ill chime in on the knee brace vision etc, anyone in MLB can do that, not everyone can go on HGH and it be legal, so this is uncharted territory and hard to say one way or another what it does for Trouts performance, my guess is it gives him a slight edge but im not a doctor hah

 

IMO knee braces lasik etc isnt any advantage because if someone see's better than you or performed better than you with it, why dont you get one to make it equal ya know

Edited January 17, 2020 by kmoore1521

[The Big Bat Theory 7,522]

27 minutes ago, fletch44 said:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/white-sox/2020/1/17/21070686/sign-stealing-jack-mcdowell-tony-larussa-comiskey-park

Thanks for this post.  Some highlights:

Quote

Former White Sox pitcher Jack McDowell claims former manager Tony La Russa created an illegal sign-stealing operation at old Comiskey Park in the 1980s.

In an interview with radio station WFNZ-AM in Charlotte, N.C., McDowell claims the Sox set up a camera that zoomed in on opposing catchers and a light in an outfield advertisement that could let hitters know what pitches were coming. McDowell alleges that a control switch for the light was in the manager’s office.

“I’m going to whistle-blow this thing now because I’m getting tired of this crap,” McDowell told the station.

“This stuff’s getting old, where they target certain guys and let other people off the hook,” McDowell told the station. “... Everybody who’s been around the game knows all this stuff.”

I agree.  Everyone is using something and always will.  Toronto did it for decades at the old park.  But like he says, some get targeted and others get left off the hook. 

Meanwhile you can solve at least 90% if not more of this with a buzzer on the pitcher instead sending him the signals.

[Mikewastaken 443]

11 minutes ago, kmoore1521 said:

 

HGH isnt as black and white as a knee brace my man, or even cortisone injections for swelling, not a good comparison imo, lots of factors go into what HGH does to each individual using it with regards to the extent of the effects it has on ones body

 

EDIT: saw you responded to some others so ill chime in on the knee brace vision etc, anyone in MLB can do that, not everyone can go on HGH and it be legal, so this is uncharted territory and hard to say one way or another what it does for Trouts performance, my guess is it gives him a slight edge but im not a doctor hah

 

IMO knee braces lasik etc isnt any advantage because if someone see's better than you or performed better than you with it, why dont you get one to make it equal ya know

That arms race mentality is the entire reason why the steroids era was what it was. I totally agree this is uncharted territory and my point from the start is once you start down that road of trying to guess how much one thing or another is helping someone and where to draw the line, things get very tricky.

[Fbaseballgod 335]

The take in this thread that Trout could legitimately have a medical exemption but still be getting an “advantage” is downright bizarre. What do you think the point of a medical exemption is? Lol

[StevieStats 3,857]

29 minutes ago, Fbaseballgod said:

The take in this thread that Trout could legitimately have a medical exemption but still be getting an “advantage” is downright bizarre. What do you think the point of a medical exemption is? Lol

Hmm... Could be that the premier player in the league with freakish athleticism and unmatched power/speed blend has a special exemption for a high powered PED. 

Your inference that a medical exemption merely gives him a level playing field is just silly.

...IF there's even truth to any of it.

[kmoore1521 1,461]

29 minutes ago, Fbaseballgod said:

The take in this thread that Trout could legitimately have a medical exemption but still be getting an “advantage” is downright bizarre. What do you think the point of a medical exemption is? Lol

 

Do you know the exact details of Trouts condition? Do you know all the effects HGH has on the body? What the HGH is doing specifically for his condition? etc etc etc

 

this post aint it chief

[The 7th Beatles 15,745]

Edited January 17, 2020 by The 7th Beatles

[StevieStats 3,857]

1 hour ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Thanks for this post.  Some highlights:

I agree.  Everyone is using something and always will.  Toronto did it for decades at the old park.  But like he says, some get targeted and others get left off the hook. 

Meanwhile you can solve at least 90% if not more of this with a buzzer on the pitcher instead sending him the signals.

Well it technically wasn't against the rules previously... MLB issued a new rule banning cameras from foul pole to foul pole. It's not picking and choosing, it's enforcing a new rule and punishing teams that have been discovered/reported of violatingbsaid rule.

That simple.

I agree, buzzer or LED or smart watch type device to vibrate, light up, or display signal. I think this would also increase pace of play dramatically. No more changing signs, sequencing, etc. Just boom comminicated pitch.

[larfboy 268]

On 1/14/2020 at 2:03 PM, larfboy said:

what about something that vibrates...

I guess this aged well 

[2ndCitySox 4,614]

3 hours ago, fletch44 said:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/white-sox/2020/1/17/21070686/sign-stealing-jack-mcdowell-tony-larussa-comiskey-park

Fire LaRussa immediately!

[2ndCitySox 4,614]

1 hour ago, kmoore1521 said:

 

Do you know the exact details of Trouts condition? Do you know all the effects HGH has on the body? What the HGH is doing specifically for his condition? etc etc etc

 

this post aint it chief

Do you? 

Has anyone compared Trouts 2020 head circumference to his rookie year?

[2ndCitySox 4,614]

https://www.angelswin.com/forums/topic/41349-david-brosius-admits-making-up-mike-trout-hgh-allegations/

[Cmilne23 10,559]

15 minutes ago, 2ndCitySox said:

https://www.angelswin.com/forums/topic/41349-david-brosius-admits-making-up-mike-trout-hgh-allegations/

His dad probably reamed him.  Outing the chosen one has consequences.  There’s been whispers for many years he uses HGH.  It’s not like PED use HGH though.  My mom has had serious health issues with arthritis over years and she’s been prescribed HGH.  If he has a thyroid condition it’s likely he’s prescribed HGH.  These are medically evaluated levels.  Not Brodie at your local 24 fitness eating a bowl for breakfast and hitting the gym.  

Edited January 17, 2020 by Cmilne23

[kmoore1521 1,461]

25 minutes ago, 2ndCitySox said:

Do you? 

Has anyone compared Trouts 2020 head circumference to his rookie year?

 

Never said I did? I was responding to a poster who said it was bizarre that there was speculation over whether the HGH could be giving trout an advantage, which it is not bizarre 

[SpartyOn4 748]

20 hours ago, tucker26 said:

Think the “it ruins the integrity of the game” argument flew out the window maybe a decade or two ago lol

Yeah, I always chuckle at that. What integrity of the game?

Baseball started with fielders yanking runners down by the belt loops, runners sharpening their spikes and groundskeepers hiding extra balls in the outfield. Sign stealing scandals date back to the 19th century. There's been the Black Sox, spitballs and emory boards, pine tar and corked bats, and of course the Steroid Era.

Baseball players have cheated, are cheating, and will continue to cheat. It's a fact of life. I can't muster up any more shock and outrage about it.

Edited January 17, 2020 by SpartyOn4

[2ndCitySox 4,614]

9 minutes ago, kmoore1521 said:

 

Never said I did? I was responding to a poster who said it was bizarre that there was speculation over whether the HGH could be giving trout an advantage, which it is not bizarre 

Misread then. Sorry!

[Overlord 995]

1. The powers-that-be in baseball have tried to minimize, ignore, or sweep under the rug this issue and it only keeps getting bigger.
2.  

And for good reason.  Other than the Black Sox and Donaghy scandals, it's the biggest cheating problem I can think of in major professional sports.  Now we're finding out Bregman, Altuve, and possibly other players wore buzzers?  And they're not facing year-long suspensions at minimum?

The integrity of the game itself over the past three years is seen as a complete joke at this point and Manfred is clueless as to how to restore confidence.  Which should have started with vacating the 2017 World Series title and just naming the Yankees the AL Champion and the Dodgers the NL Champion and not having a WS champion for 2017.  

The PEDs issues are a completely different kettle of fish  Those are individual players cheating the system to try to perform at a higher level; it's atrocious and they should be ashamed/punished/whatever, but they still have to go out there and actually play the game of baseball with their own bodies according to the rulebook.  Electronic cheating methods?  You're subverting the fundamental nature of the sport itself.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Overlord

[meh2 3,488]

32 minutes ago, Cmilne23 said:

His dad probably reamed him.  Outing the chosen one has consequences.  There’s been whispers for many years he uses HGH.  It’s not like PED use HGH though.  My mom has had serious health issues with arthritis over years and she’s been prescribed HGH.  If he has a thyroid condition it’s likely he’s prescribed HGH.  These are medically evaluated levels.  Not Brodie at your local 24 fitness eating a bowl for breakfast and hitting the gym.  

Hope his dad can help with the incoming defamation lawsuit.

[StevieStats 3,857]

1 hour ago, Cmilne23 said:

His dad probably reamed him.  Outing the chosen one has consequences.  There’s been whispers for many years he uses HGH.  It’s not like PED use HGH though.  My mom has had serious health issues with arthritis over years and she’s been prescribed HGH.  If he has a thyroid condition it’s likely he’s prescribed HGH.  These are medically evaluated levels.  Not Brodie at your local 24 fitness eating a bowl for breakfast and hitting the gym.  

No offense, but it's kind of naive to assume he's getting low dose general public levels after what we learned in the Mitchell Report fiasco. Guys have been routinely supplied by doctors performance enhancing levels.

[The Big Bat Theory 7,522]

1 hour ago, SpartyOn4 said:

Yeah, I always chuckle at that. What integrity of the game?

Baseball started with fielders yanking runners down by the belt loops, runners sharpening their spikes and groundskeepers hiding extra balls in the outfield. Sign stealing scandals date back to the 19th century. There's been the Black Sox, spitballs and emory boards, pine tar and corked bats, and of course the Steroid Era.

Baseball players have cheated, are cheating, and will continue to cheat. It's a fact of life. I can't muster up any more shock and outrage about it.

Well put, sir.  Also don't forget another of the worse.  The Pete Rose betting on baseball scandal. 

But every time people get in an uproar over one of these things?  The game just keeps on chugging along.  Baseball has more lives than a cat and is harder to kill than a cockroach.  It will survive as always.  Not just this episode but the next and the next and the next.  And there always will be a next in baseball.  It's pretty much part of the game in and of itself.

Edited January 18, 2020 by The Big Bat Theory

[Mikewastaken 443]

8 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Well put, sir.  Also don't forget another of the worse.  The Pete Rose betting on baseball scandal. 

But every time people get in an uproar over one of these things?  The game just keeps on chugging along.  Baseball has more lives than a cat and is harder to kill than a cockroach.  It will survive as always.  Not just this episode but the next and the next and the next.  And there always will be a next in baseball.  It's pretty much part of the game in and of itself.

This is the mantra Rob Manfred whispers to himself as he falls asleep each night. 

[Cmilne23 10,559]

41 minutes ago, StevieStats said:

No offense, but it's kind of naive to assume he's getting low dose general public levels after what we learned in the Mitchell Report fiasco. Guys have been routinely supplied by doctors performance enhancing levels.

I agree.  I’d certainly like to know more on it as well.