2020 MLB Sign Stealing Discussion

[shakestreet 4,103]

46 minutes ago, BMcP said:

I would scoff, because I am - but it would be preferable to inexplicably forcing players to learn a new Morse code system impromptu.

We have seen numerous mix ups with just fingers. What you think is going to happen with players who speak a different language. He is recommending a 172 is a down & out fastball while a 177 is in high and tight fastball etc... Will they be on the same page with these new signals?I just don’t see this Morse code stuff working. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by shakestreet

[BMcP 8,612]

1 minute ago, shakestreet said:

We have seen numerous mix ups with just fingers. What you think is going to happen with players who speak a different language. Will they be on the same page with the signals and Morse code? He is recommending a 172 is a down & out fastball while a 177 is in high and tight fastball etc... I just don’t see this Morse code stuff working. 

Plus, we aren’t even talking about Morse anymore when we start discussing numeric codes.

[2ndCitySox 4,631]

2 hours ago, BMcP said:

Ok - you’re now straying from the concept under debate - i.e., a “tapping” system.

It wouldn't be hard to tap 172 times.

[89Topps 2,710]

1 hour ago, shakestreet said:

We have seen numerous mix ups with just fingers. What you think is going to happen with players who speak a different language. He is recommending a 172 is a down & out fastball while a 177 is in high and tight fastball etc... Will they be on the same page with these new signals?I just don’t see this Morse code stuff working. 

 

How would some kind of numerical communication be confusing for players who speak different languages?

[89Topps 2,710]

1 hour ago, shakestreet said:

Couldn’t this information be hacked .. then relayed to the batter via an ear plug? 

 

I don't know.  The NFL seems to have figured out a way for coaches and QBs to communicate without it being hacked.  

 

I'm not a tech expert, but I assume MLB could figure out a way to make that communication secure.

[2ndCitySox 4,631]

Unhackable communication device 

[The 7th Beatles 15,748]

[StevieStats 3,857]

3 hours ago, shakestreet said:

We have seen numerous mix ups with just fingers. What you think is going to happen with players who speak a different language. He is recommending a 172 is a down & out fastball while a 177 is in high and tight fastball etc... Will they be on the same page with these new signals?I just don’t see this Morse code stuff working. 

Morse code won't work. It would need to be a smart watch type transmitter. Wear the transmitter on the glovehand wrist facing in. Catcher will be able to send transmission from his wristband which can be as large as a 4" playcalling sheet. They can still mix in some signage for location if necessary. I'd say a display that showed a number will work fine.

[TribeFoo 1,424]

If you thought Bregman had a punchable face before don't even watch his smug company speak at the Astros fan event. Why are Astros players acting like this there's still some doubt about the validity of this scandal? Just own up to it and get the press off your backs. I have no idea what they're thinking.

[Baseball Jonze 361]

I'm still waiting on Verlander to finally break his silence on the matter. 

I don't get why the commissioner gave the players immunity - they knew about it and benefited from it.  I guess it's a MLBPA thing and getting them to roll on the management who doesn't have the union protections.  Manfred's one year suspension and fine - big deal.  I mean the firings came from the ownership of the teams.  Have to hope the baseball writers who have HOF ballots blackball any players from the team.  To me this is much more Black Sox than steroids or Rose in that this was a conspiracy to cheat rather than lone wolf individuals in the case of steroids. 

[Members_Only_76 7,283]

19 hours ago, TribeFoo said:

If you thought Bregman had a punchable face before don't even watch his smug company speak at the Astros fan event. Why are Astros players acting like this there's still some doubt about the validity of this scandal? Just own up to it and get the press off your backs. I have no idea what they're thinking.

 

Seriously.

 

And these players don't have to divulge details, but something along the lines of: "It's a very unfortunate situation that I'm sorry to have been a part of. I accept responsibility for being involved and it won't happen again. With that in mind, I'd like to move forward and work towards getting back to the WS in 2020". 

 

Something like that would go a long way in moving past this sooner than later.

 

 

[charger_ss24 458]

48 minutes ago, Members_Only_76 said:

 

Seriously.

 

And these players don't have to divulge details, but something along the lines of: "It's a very unfortunate situation that I'm sorry to have been a part of. I accept responsibility for being involved and it won't happen again. With that in mind, I'd like to move forward and work towards getting back to the WS in 2020". 

 

Something like that would go a long way in moving past this sooner than later.

 

 

As it’s said with hands behind back, fingers crossed.

[tonycpsu 5,391]

 

🤔

[fletch44 1,531]

On 1/20/2020 at 8:21 PM, Baseball Jonze said:

I'm still waiting on Verlander to finally break his silence on the matter. 

I don't get why the commissioner gave the players immunity - they knew about it and benefited from it.  I guess it's a MLBPA thing and getting them to roll on the management who doesn't have the union protections.  Manfred's one year suspension and fine - big deal.  I mean the firings came from the ownership of the teams.  Have to hope the baseball writers who have HOF ballots blackball any players from the team.  To me this is much more Black Sox than steroids or Rose in that this was a conspiracy to cheat rather than lone wolf individuals in the case of steroids. 

I disagree here. Sign stealing has been going on since the dawn of baseball. The only difference in this case is 1) the tools being used 2) they were caught on video and 3) we're living in an era of constant feigned outrage backed up by 24/7 media spraying gasoline on it to drive traffic. If someone was caught stealing signs 40+ years ago, I'm guessing someone would have gotten beaned, it would have been noted in a game write up and it would have been forgotten in a week.

Connie Mack: “The object is to keep your signals secret so that your opponents won’t get wise to them."

Sparky Anderson: “If you can’t hide your signs, you’ve got problems.”

Orel Hershiser : “Winning and losing is a cutthroat business, and stealing signs is a fair part of  gamesmanship. It’s not cheating.”

Stealing signs is a part of the game. If you want to say we're not going to allow some forms of it, then fine. Give them a slap on the wrist and move on. This was done. But let's not act like this is some next level form of cheating that calls for sweeping player bans and major reforms. That is silly and reactionary and does far more damage to baseball than the "crime". It's not even in the same ballpark as players taking money to intentionally lose !

Action item for the league: Start researching and testing digital forms of communication for the catcher and pitcher to signal with.

In the mean time, action item for players . Change your signs.

Problem solved.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by fletch44

[BMcP 8,612]

5 hours ago, fletch44 said:

I disagree here. Sign stealing has been going on since the dawn of baseball. The only difference in this case is 1) the tools being used 2) they were caught on video and 3) we're living in an era of constant feigned outrage backed up by 24/7 media spraying gasoline on it to drive traffic. If someone was caught stealing signs 40+ years ago, I'm guessing someone would have gotten beaned, it would have been noted in a game write up and it would have been forgotten in a week.

Connie Mack: “The object is to keep your signals secret so that your opponents won’t get wise to them."

Sparky Anderson: “If you can’t hide your signs, you’ve got problems.”

Orel Hershiser : “Winning and losing is a cutthroat business, and stealing signs is a fair part of  gamesmanship. It’s not cheating.”

Stealing signs is a part of the game. If you want to say we're not going to allow some forms of it, then fine. Give them a slap on the wrist and move on. This was done. But let's not act like this is some next level form of cheating that calls for sweeping player bans and major reforms. That is silly and reactionary and does far more damage to baseball than the "crime". It's not even in the same ballpark as players taking money to intentionally lose !

Action item for the league: Start researching and testing digital forms of communication for the catcher and pitcher to signal with.

In the mean time, action item for players . Change your signs.

Problem solved.

 

 

And 4) the commissioner flat-out banned the use of tech to steal signs and the Astros flouted that rule continuously.  I think if it were as simple as “change your signs,” no team ever would’ve obtained an advantage from this form of cheating.  Personally, my outrage isn’t feigned.

[Baseball Jonze 361]

6 hours ago, fletch44 said:

I disagree here. Sign stealing has been going on since the dawn of baseball. The only difference in this case is 1) the tools being used 2) they were caught on video and 3) we're living in an era of constant feigned outrage backed up by 24/7 media spraying gasoline on it to drive traffic. If someone was caught stealing signs 40+ years ago, I'm guessing someone would have gotten beaned, it would have been noted in a game write up and it would have been forgotten in a week.

Connie Mack: “The object is to keep your signals secret so that your opponents won’t get wise to them."

Sparky Anderson: “If you can’t hide your signs, you’ve got problems.”

Orel Hershiser : “Winning and losing is a cutthroat business, and stealing signs is a fair part of  gamesmanship. It’s not cheating.”

Stealing signs is a part of the game. If you want to say we're not going to allow some forms of it, then fine. Give them a slap on the wrist and move on. This was done. But let's not act like this is some next level form of cheating that calls for sweeping player bans and major reforms. That is silly and reactionary and does far more damage to baseball than the "crime". It's not even in the same ballpark as players taking money to intentionally lose !

Action item for the league: Start researching and testing digital forms of communication for the catcher and pitcher to signal with.

In the mean time, action item for players . Change your signs.

Problem solved.

 

 

 

Sign stealing with technology hasn't been part of the game and specifically was targeted and banned by the commish.  This would be more a kin to greenies being basically legal in the 80's and banned now.  It was legal until it wasn't.  And once you knowingly break the rules, flout them to such a degree whereby the whole team, coaching staff and scouting staff is involved - that should be equivalent to a death penalty for the ring leaders and severe sanctions for all others. 

Sign stealing and countering it with changing your signs is one thing when you only have to do it with a runner on second.  Using cameras and tech means what you have to change up your signs every batter?  How many different signs will the pitcher and catcher have to remember to make sure the tech cheaters haven't cracked their signals?

[The Big Bat Theory 7,548]

2 hours ago, Baseball Jonze said:

Sign stealing with technology hasn't been part of the game and specifically was targeted and banned by the commish.  This would be more a kin to greenies being basically legal in the 80's and banned now.  It was legal until it wasn't.  And once you knowingly break the rules, flout them to such a degree whereby the whole team, coaching staff and scouting staff is involved - that should be equivalent to a death penalty for the ring leaders and severe sanctions for all others. 

Sign stealing and countering it with changing your signs is one thing when you only have to do it with a runner on second.  Using cameras and tech means what you have to change up your signs every batter?  How many different signs will the pitcher and catcher have to remember to make sure the tech cheaters haven't cracked their signals?

... since before 1898.  After that date?  Yes.  Been used for decades.  Telescopes with electrical wires are the same thing.  Video cameras with telescopic lenses used in Toronto for years and years in the 1990's on.  Technology is technology.  Been with us for literally centuries.  They didn't invent technology three years ago.

Edited January 23, 2020 by The Big Bat Theory

[Low and Away 1,573]

2 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

... since before 1898.  After that date?  Yes.  Been used for decades.  Telescopes with electrical wires are the same thing.  Video cameras with telescopic lenses used in Toronto for years and years in the 1990's on.  Technology is technology.  Been with us for literally centuries.  They didn't invent technology three years ago.

Kind of curious about when the tech was mandated against the rules. As far as I've read or heard it is fairly recent. Like the last 3 years. If it happened centuries ago wouldn't that make sign stealing predate baseball?

[shakestreet 4,103]

2 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

... since before 1898.  After that date?  Yes.  Been used for decades.  Telescopes with electrical wires are the same thing.  Video cameras with telescopic lenses used in Toronto for years and years in the 1990's on.  Technology is technology.  Been with us for literally centuries.  They didn't invent technology three years ago.

IMO.. Using 1898 as an example is hilarious. 1898 technology just doesn’t compare to 2017. Houston went overboard with this sign stealing show. Playoff game, the score is 2-2 it’s the bottom of the 9th. Jose Altuve is coming up to bat before he goes up he heads into the room the sign stealer tells him he has the cadence. Jose knows that means when the pitcher throws his change up there will be a bang from the drum or the whistler will whistle or he will get a shock from the wire. Game over Jose hits a homerun game over. 

[WahooManiac 2,002]

12 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

IMO.. Using 1898 as an example is hilarious. 1898 technology just doesn’t compare to 2017. Houston went overboard with this sign stealing show. Playoff game, the score is 2-2 it’s the bottom of the 9th. Jose Altuve is coming up to bat before he goes up he heads into the room the sign stealer tells him he has the cadence. Jose knows that means when the pitcher throws his change up there will be a bang from the drum or the whistler will whistle or he will get a shock from the wire. Game over Jose hits a homerun game over. 

How can you,  in one post,  both claim tech is so much better yet realize it still came down to banging a drum?   Literally caveman technology.  Short of a baby grunt for hunger,  possibly the most basic form of human communication ever.  

Tech is great,  i love this age... but a stolen sign is a stolen sign.  1898 to 2017

[MrBrown 735]

You could see Bregman had more to hide with his response to questions.  "The commissioner made his report"  What a chump.  Altuve warning everyone not to ripoff his jersey and then beelining into the dugout to change his shirt.  I'm glad Judge removed his congratulations tweet to Altuve.  No one respects those chumps anymore

[The Big Bat Theory 7,548]

1 hour ago, Low and Away said:

Kind of curious about when the tech was mandated against the rules. As far as I've read or heard it is fairly recent. Like the last 3 years. If it happened centuries ago wouldn't that make sign stealing predate baseball?

The 19th century to the 21st century.  tech used in three different centuries.

1 hour ago, shakestreet said:

IMO.. Using 1898 as an example is hilarious. 1898 technology just doesn’t compare to 2017. Houston went overboard with this sign stealing show. Playoff game, the score is 2-2 it’s the bottom of the 9th. Jose Altuve is coming up to bat before he goes up he heads into the room the sign stealer tells him he has the cadence. Jose knows that means when the pitcher throws his change up there will be a bang from the drum or the whistler will whistle or he will get a shock from the wire. Game over Jose hits a homerun game over. 

The 1898 tech was cutting edge for it's time too.  The exact same thing.  Using the most modern tech available.

[hailtoyourvictor 1,662]

1 hour ago, WahooManiac said:

How can you,  in one post,  both claim tech is so much better yet realize it still came down to banging a drum?   Literally caveman technology.  Short of a baby grunt for hunger,  possibly the most basic form of human communication ever.  

Tech is great,  i love this age... but a stolen sign is a stolen sign.  1898 to 2017

 

A sign stolen by means available to both teams (ie. base coach picking up on a sign) is acceptable to me. A sign stolen by means available to only the home team (ie. installing cameras in the stadium to pickup signs that the away team can't access) is not acceptable to me.

 

Those two types of sign stealing aren't the same.

[The Big Bat Theory 7,548]

4 minutes ago, hailtoyourvictor said:

A sign stolen by means available to both teams (ie. base coach picking up on a sign) is acceptable to me. A sign stolen by means available to only the home team (ie. installing cameras in the stadium to pickup signs that the away team can't access) is not acceptable to me.

Those two types of sign stealing aren't the same.

Sure they are in the sense that every team has a home park so it all evens out.

[hailtoyourvictor 1,662]

7 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Sure they are in the sense that every team has a home park so it all evens out.

 

I think that's a silly way to look at it. Giving one team a massively unfair advantage to steal signs at home because the away team can get that advantage at home, too, is not good for the game (in my opinion).

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by hailtoyourvictor