2020 Hall of Fame discussion

[BMcP]

1 hour ago, HOOTIE said:

Kind of like Babe Ruth corking bats. MLB banned corked bats, because Ruth was doing it. 

Kind of like Willie May's with red juice in his locker. A concoction of greenies.

 

 

A baseball bat filled with cork can hit a baseball farther than a normal bat.

BUSTED

This myth operates under the assumption that cork-filled bats can be swung faster because of their lighter weight, and that the springiness of the cork could propel the ball farther. To eliminate the human factor of the myth, Adam and Jamie constructed a special batting rig and used a pressurized air cannon to launch the baseball at it. Tests showed that the cannon could launch the ball 80 miles per hour, which is the average speed of most MLB pitches. Regulation bats could propel the ball away at 80mph while corked bats could only propel the ball 40mph, half the speed of regulation bats. The reason was because cork bats have less mass to transfer force into the ball, and the cork actually absorbs some of the ball’s impact. The MythBusters concluded that using a cork filled bat will not improve your performance (it will in fact hurt it), and the major league batters who were caught using cork-filled bats risked their careers for nothing.

[BMcP]

1 hour ago, HOOTIE said:

Kind of like Babe Ruth corking bats. MLB banned corked bats, because Ruth was doing it. 

Kind of like Willie May's with red juice in his locker. A concoction of greenies.

 

 

Kind of like how it wasn’t explicitly banned to use those substances at that time.  Why bring it up in an era now where certain cheating practices have been declaratively banned and certain teams still cheat by using those practices.

[hailfire4]

My idea is every year add 1 spot to HOF. So if the writers vote 2 guys in then 1 guy gets kicked out. They can start a wing of exHOF guys. With the juiced players and juiced ball and the average ERA of 7 last year, hitters going to be flooding HOF while pitchers get bypassed. steroid guys and Rose should not even be on the ballot if they are ineligible to be inducted. Ken Caminiti is the only real victim of the steroid era. With so many teams and now with 26 man rosters it is no wonder so many current players compare better to the early players. I am also not a fan of closers in HOF. these guys pitch 60 IP a year? 

[HOOTIE]

27 minutes ago, BMcP said:

Kind of like how it wasn’t explicitly banned to use those substances at that time.  Why bring it up in an era now where certain cheating practices have been declaratively banned and certain teams still cheat by using those practices.

If corking is no big deal, why make it illegal? Why the big fuss on Belle and Sosa?

Greenies became prescription only in 1965. So they took illegal substances. 

So it's ok to give old timers a pass?

What evidence is there, Bonds doesnt hit 762, if he never used?

 

 

[BMcP]

6 hours ago, HOOTIE said:

If corking is no big deal, why make it illegal? Why the big fuss on Belle and Sosa?

Greenies became prescription only in 1965. So they took illegal substances. 

So it's ok to give old timers a pass?

What evidence is there, Bonds doesnt hit 762, if he never used?

 

 

Greenies weren’t banned in baseball until 2006.

You’d have to ask the FO about cork in bats.  I’m just passing along the fact that it doesn’t help batters.

Steroids and HGH are totally different from filling a bat with a substance that doesn’t help you hit better.

 

[Slatykamora]

4 hours ago, BMcP said:

Greenies weren’t banned in baseball until 2006.

You’d have to ask the FO about cork in bats.  I’m just passing along the fact that it doesn’t help batters.

Steroids and HGH are totally different from filling a bat with a substance that doesn’t help you hit better.

 

That Myth busters thing only address one part of the newtons law aspect.

More force does nothing if you can't barrel on it. The idea of a lighter big bat is making it easier to barrel up/react with the larger surface area a big bat gives you.

Hitting a baseball is one the hardest things to asked to do and all and gaining extra split seconds of reaction time is huge. You trade off your raw power ceiling for squaring up on the ball more often.

[BMcP]

47 minutes ago, Slatykamora said:

That Myth busters thing only address one part of the newtons law aspect.

More force does nothing if you can't barrel on it. The idea of a lighter big bat is making it easier to barrel up/react with the larger surface area a big bat gives you.

Hitting a baseball is one the hardest things to asked to do and all and gaining extra split seconds of reaction time is huge. You trade off your raw power ceiling for squaring up on the ball more often.

Are we talking about the Sultan of Swat gaining an exit velo advantage from a significantly lighter bat?!

[Slatykamora]

8 minutes ago, BMcP said:

Are we talking about the Sultan of Swat gaining an exit velo advantage from a significantly lighter bat?!

That sounds like an arguement no one is making but you. 

Ruth was swinging bigger bats then modern day ball players. Corking an enormous bat=/=corking a modern day bat

[89Topps]

13 hours ago, hailfire4 said:

My idea is every year add 1 spot to HOF. So if the writers vote 2 guys in then 1 guy gets kicked out. They can start a wing of exHOF guys. With the juiced players and juiced ball and the average ERA of 7 last year, hitters going to be flooding HOF while pitchers get bypassed. steroid guys and Rose should not even be on the ballot if they are ineligible to be inducted. Ken Caminiti is the only real victim of the steroid era. With so many teams and now with 26 man rosters it is no wonder so many current players compare better to the early players. I am also not a fan of closers in HOF. these guys pitch 60 IP a year? 

 

This is assuming the writers are not able to consider era adjusted statistics.  I mean, Cy Young has 511 wins; that didn't stop Roy Halladay from being inducted with 203.

[parrothead]

Jeter is Paul Molitor (who was first ballot with like 85%)- I kind of agree with some that he is for sure a HOF but nobody says when you have to go and if Willie Mays and Hank Aaron are not unanimous, than I can give a hoot who else is not. 

When I looked at some of the votes, one guy down on the bottom that I think could of gotten a little more love was Cliff Lee, who got only 2 votes.  Won a Cy and actually had a couple more seasons that were statistically better than that Cy year.   Had really strong ratios in the 7 post seasons he pitched in.  

 

 

 

[BMcP]

2 hours ago, Slatykamora said:

That sounds like an arguement no one is making but you. 

Ruth was swinging bigger bats then modern day ball players. Corking an enormous bat=/=corking a modern day bat

See OP I was responding to.  Pretty weird if you thought I was suggesting the Babe was a slap-hitter.

Edited January 24, 2020 by BMcP

[HOOTIE]

In 1991, Fay Vincent issued a memo to all clubs, banning drugs, peds.

The CBA, collective bargaining agreement, made it impossible to enforce. Because they objected to any testing.

So the clean players, covered for the cheating ones. 

Nobody had the guts of Mike Fiers, back then.

Taking greenies after 1964, without prescriptions, broke federal law. The players GOT the BENEFIT of peds, whether MLB had a law on it or not.

The bottom line is, no one can tell who did, and who didn't use in history, with 100% accuracy.

So it's really nothing more then a witch hunt.

 

[HOOTIE]

Bonds, Clemens, sosa, mcgwire get the heat. Yet none of them ever got suspended.

Who knows with 100% accuracy, if say griffey or jeter ever took anything? The could of before testing. Some things, cant be found in testing. I'm not accusing them, but no one, can prove with 100% accuracy, they didn't.  Who would have ever thought, that the clean cut, family man, religious man, Andy Pettite would have used?

Because you never flunked a test, or has your name come out, doesnt mean you never used. 

[BMcP]

4 hours ago, HOOTIE said:

In 1991, Fay Vincent issued a memo to all clubs, banning drugs, peds.

The CBA, collective bargaining agreement, made it impossible to enforce. Because they objected to any testing.

So the clean players, covered for the cheating ones. 

Nobody had the guts of Mike Fiers, back then.

Taking greenies after 1964, without prescriptions, broke federal law. The players GOT the BENEFIT of peds, whether MLB had a law on it or not.

The bottom line is, no one can tell who did, and who didn't use in history, with 100% accuracy.

So it's really nothing more then a witch hunt.

 

How do you posit all those facts and conclude “witch hunt”?

[BMcP]

4 hours ago, HOOTIE said:

Bonds, Clemens, sosa, mcgwire get the heat. Yet none of them ever got suspended.

Who knows with 100% accuracy, if say griffey or jeter ever took anything? The could of before testing. Some things, cant be found in testing. I'm not accusing them, but no one, can prove with 100% accuracy, they didn't.  Who would have ever thought, that the clean cut, family man, religious man, Andy Pettite would have used?

Because you never flunked a test, or has your name come out, doesnt mean you never used. 

Sosa got suspended for cork.

[Slatykamora]

13 hours ago, BMcP said:

See OP I was responding to.  Pretty weird if you thought I was suggesting the Babe was a slap-hitter.

 Boiling down being a good hitter to raw power potential and slap hitting is kinda odd.

[BMcP]

1 minute ago, Slatykamora said:

 Boiling down being a good hitter to raw power potential and slap hitting is kinda odd.

But your point seemed to be about barreling: what good is that if you’re a power hitter and you’re now working with approximately half of your exit velocity potential?

[BMcP]

12 hours ago, HOOTIE said:

In 1991, Fay Vincent issued a memo to all clubs, banning drugs, peds.

The CBA, collective bargaining agreement, made it impossible to enforce. Because they objected to any testing.

So the clean players, covered for the cheating ones. 

Nobody had the guts of Mike Fiers, back then.

Taking greenies after 1964, without prescriptions, broke federal law. The players GOT the BENEFIT of peds, whether MLB had a law on it or not.

The bottom line is, no one can tell who did, and who didn't use in history, with 100% accuracy.

So it's really nothing more then a witch hunt.

 

Illegal drugs.  Who’s to say how many of the individuals using greenies had prescriptions anyway?  Ironically, Bonds failed a drug test for amphetamines in 2006.

[hailfire4]

About Mike Fiers guts. When the Astros cheated their way to a championship Fiers was as complicit as everybody else. spilling the beans 2 years later only means he is as dirty as everyone in the organization. I doubt any Astro from that team has a career in baseball after they retire. They will just go away like Cora, Beltran has. Baseball forced Marge Schott out after some stupid comments. Maybe the Astros owner should be forced out using the NCAA dreaded "loss of institutional control". There was zero winners on that Astros club and I doubt anybody is better today.

[HOOTIE]

2 hours ago, hailfire4 said:

About Mike Fiers guts. When the Astros cheated their way to a championship Fiers was as complicit as everybody else. spilling the beans 2 years later only means he is as dirty as everyone in the organization. I doubt any Astro from that team has a career in baseball after they retire. They will just go away like Cora, Beltran has. Baseball forced Marge Schott out after some stupid comments. Maybe the Astros owner should be forced out using the NCAA dreaded "loss of institutional control". There was zero winners on that Astros club and I doubt anybody is better today.

Until people speak up, whistleblowers, things will never change.

Fiers is a man. He put his name to it. It was going to be a story regardless, had Rosenthal just used a anomalous source.

Who knows if Fiers was complacent? It's possible he said, I want no part of it.

Aj Finch, Cora. Beltran win all have jobs again.

The Astros are winners, like it or not.

They have rings and the title.

Until MLB, players union, agents, get serious about anything, cheating WILL continue.

A slap on the wrist, picks, fine, 1 year suspension, is nothing compared to the title.

Until MLB, gives lifetime bans, bands

busted players from cashing in (free agency). Nothing will change.

Find out what Astros cheated, and give a 1 year ban, or lifetime ban.

MLB drug policy, 80 game ban, is a joke. 

Ask Robby Cano or Johnny Peralta how it worked out. Translation, they lost a few mil, for many millions.

Players cheat, because there is almost no deterrent not too.

[buccsfan22]

55 minutes ago, HOOTIE said:

Aj Finch, Cora. Beltran win all have jobs again.

 

Agree with you on a lot of this, but I think Cora is done in baseball whether he gets a lifetime ban or not.