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Josh Allen 2020 Outlook


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On 5/18/2020 at 10:43 PM, PizzaBeerFF said:

My comp was Elway.

It is not about the numbers.  If Allen keeps the QB job he may meet or exceed Elway's 33 rushing TDs, 300 passing TDs, and career completion percentage of 58% or whatever.

But the numbers do not tell the tale for Elway.  During his playing days, Elway was one of the smartest, canniest, and clutchest players in the entire sport.

Yes his inferior Broncos team got smoked in a few Superbowls during the 80s and early 90s, but Elway rose to the occasion in big moments more times than I can count.  And he rode into the sunset like the ultimate gangster with a second-straight title belt.

Josh Allen?  The team seems to win about half its games in spite of him.  And Allen's playoff meltdown v. Houston was so un-Elway-like that it basically defies description.

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I truly believe he is the most talented and uniquely gifted QB / Football Player in the entire history of the NFL. We've never seen a total package like this, ever; he's a unicorn. He can do everythin

Thank you for a championship,  my friend! 80 point comeback FTW with just Diggs and you!

Just be honest you haven't watched a single snap of him. These canned prewritten takes from 2 years ago are old.

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10 minutes ago, SharkSwimmer said:

It is not about the numbers.  If Allen keeps the QB job he may meet or exceed Elway's 33 rushing TDs, 300 passing TDs, and career completion percentage of 58% or whatever.

But the numbers do not tell the tale for Elway.  During his playing days, Elway was one of the smartest, canniest, and clutchest players in the entire sport.

Yes his inferior Broncos team got smoked in a few Superbowls during the 80s and early 90s, but Elway rose to the occasion in big moments more times than I can count.  And he rode into the sunset like the ultimate gangster with a second-straight title belt.

Josh Allen?  The team seems to win about half its games in spite of him.  And Allen's playoff meltdown v. Houston was so un-Elway-like that it basically defies description.


enjoyed hearing the Elway recap.   He was really a special talent when things mattered the most.    
 

TBF tho....Allen’s first 2 seasons are better than Elways.    By a good amount.   Elway didn’t throw more Tds than picks until year 4. Allen easily accomplished that in year 2.   With more yards and better completion.   The “clutch” part of your argument may never materialize with Allen...but it may.   
 

jury is out on Allen.

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The game was a lot different in the 80s.  Not as stat-obsessed as today.  And it was much tougher then to rack up gaudy passing stats.

I think you have to compare year 1 and year 2 Elway to his peers in the league during those seasons.  Just as we should compare Allen to the best passers of 2018 and 2019.  

When you do that, it might not be so easy to say that Allen's first two years were better than Elway's.

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4 hours ago, SharkSwimmer said:

The NFC East has done pretty well v. New England in the Super Bowl.

/rimshot


If Super Bowl performance is any indication maybe we should say that the NFC West is the weakest 

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On 5/18/2020 at 9:15 PM, Boudewijn said:

Elway played the first five games of his first season. Dan Marino played in game 3. Jim Kelly played his entire first season.

Elway is the single most overrated player in NFL history.

Change my mind. 

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4 minutes ago, lolcopter said:

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In his first 10 seasons he threw 158 TDs to to 157 INT. That's a ratio of 1:1 over 10 years. This is his super bowl performances:

1. 22/37 304 1 TD 1 INT (L)

2. 14/38 257 1 TD 3 INT (L)

3. 10/26 108 0 TD 2 INT (L)

4. 12/22 123 0 TD 1 INT (W)

5. 18/29 336 1 TD 1 INT (W)

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15 hours ago, Gohawks said:

In his first 10 seasons he threw 158 TDs to to 157 INT. That's a ratio of 1:1 over 10 years. This is his super bowl performances:

1. 22/37 304 1 TD 1 INT (L)

2. 14/38 257 1 TD 3 INT (L)

3. 10/26 108 0 TD 2 INT (L)

4. 12/22 123 0 TD 1 INT (W)

5. 18/29 336 1 TD 1 INT (W)

 


oh bless.....

Stats without context will mislead you every time.   So let’s add some. 

Denver doesn’t sniff the first 3 SB games without repeated heroics from JE- Cherrypicking aside.  5 super bowl appearances in 16 years.   31 career 4th quarter comebacks,  40 game winning drives.   Including when Denver needed it the most- time and again.  The Broncos owned the AFC West for the better part of 15 years...and were a yearly threat to go to the SB under Elway.  He shattered every franchise record.  People forget how resourceful John was on the ground too.   He wasn’t Lamar Jackson or Vick— no designed runs or rpo.   Elway averaged almost 300 rushing yards a year ...mostly when Denver needed a first down.   Compare that to Marino who had as many negative rushing seasons as positive.   He stood back and slung it but wasn’t able to get the job done when the passing game broke down.   John did, with mediocre talent on offense most of his career.    He could beat you in so many ways and was never out of the game.     
 

Legend 

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On 5/21/2020 at 11:23 AM, SharkSwimmer said:

It is not about the numbers.  If Allen keeps the QB job he may meet or exceed Elway's 33 rushing TDs, 300 passing TDs, and career completion percentage of 58% or whatever.

But the numbers do not tell the tale for Elway.  During his playing days, Elway was one of the smartest, canniest, and clutchest players in the entire sport.

Yes his inferior Broncos team got smoked in a few Superbowls during the 80s and early 90s, but Elway rose to the occasion in big moments more times than I can count.  And he rode into the sunset like the ultimate gangster with a second-straight title belt.

Josh Allen?  The team seems to win about half its games in spite of him.  And Allen's playoff meltdown v. Houston was so un-Elway-like that it basically defies description.

He was in year two. Let me say it again... he was in year two. 

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3 hours ago, Impreza178 said:


oh bless.....

Stats without context will mislead you every time.   So let’s add some. 

Denver doesn’t sniff the first 3 SB games without repeated heroics from JE- Cherrypicking aside.  5 super bowl appearances in 16 years.   31 career 4th quarter comebacks,  40 game winning drives.   Including when Denver needed it the most- time and again.  The Broncos owned the AFC West for the better part of 15 years...and were a yearly threat to go to the SB under Elway.  He shattered every franchise record.  People forget how resourceful John was on the ground too.   He wasn’t Lamar Jackson or Vick— no designed runs or rpo.   Elway averaged almost 300 rushing yards a year ...mostly when Denver needed a first down.   Compare that to Marino who had as many negative rushing seasons as positive.   He stood back and slung it but wasn’t able to get the job done when the passing game broke down.   John did, with mediocre talent on offense most of his career.    He could beat you in so many ways and was never out of the game.     
 

Legend 

Got it. 

Cam Newton > Tom Brady

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Getting to the Superbowl once is very difficult.

Getting there 5x?  Without Belichick to hold your hand and erase all your mistakes?

Flat out impossible without some genuine magic.

I just don't see those qualities in Josh Allen.  

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4 hours ago, Impreza178 said:


oh bless.....

Stats without context will mislead you every time.   So let’s add some. 

Denver doesn’t sniff the first 3 SB games without repeated heroics from JE- Cherrypicking aside.  5 super bowl appearances in 16 years.   31 career 4th quarter comebacks,  40 game winning drives.   Including when Denver needed it the most- time and again.  The Broncos owned the AFC West for the better part of 15 years...and were a yearly threat to go to the SB under Elway.  He shattered every franchise record.  People forget how resourceful John was on the ground too.   He wasn’t Lamar Jackson or Vick— no designed runs or rpo.   Elway averaged almost 300 rushing yards a year ...mostly when Denver needed a first down.   Compare that to Marino who had as many negative rushing seasons as positive.   He stood back and slung it but wasn’t able to get the job done when the passing game broke down.   John did, with mediocre talent on offense most of his career.    He could beat you in so many ways and was never out of the game.     
 

Legend 

On a serious note.

The AFC was horrible in the 80s if you want to talk context. During the first 3 Super Bowl appearances he only played 1 team on his way to the super Bowl with a top 5 SRS. This is evident also but him getting absolutely obliterated in each of those appearances. Only had 1 first all pro season and has one of the most underwhelming MVP seasons we've seen (Rice had more receiving TDs than Elway had passing that year for example). In his ENTIRE career he only finished top 5 in yards twice and TDs 3 times. Got flat out carried to Super Bowl wins by his defense and Davis. His post season TD INT ratio is borderline 1:1...

"He was clutch!"

"He has 2 rings!!"

So basically we have a glorified Eli Manning. I don't why he moved on from Tebow either. Tebow had that clutch gene in the bag. Led that bad Broncos team to the playoffs. 

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14 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

Got it. 

Cam Newton > Tom Brady

Prime Cam Newton has far more physical talent than Prime Elway.  But Elway was far clutcher and, ultimately, far more accomplished.

Brady has less physical talent than either, but he has been pretty clutch and had the best coach of all time putting him in position to win a lot of games.

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18 hours ago, Gohawks said:

On a serious note.

The AFC was horrible in the 80s if you want to talk context. During the first 3 Super Bowl appearances he only played 1 team on his way to the super Bowl with a top 5 SRS. This is evident also but him getting absolutely obliterated in each of those appearances. Only had 1 first all pro season and has one of the most underwhelming MVP seasons we've seen (Rice had more receiving TDs than Elway had passing that year for example). In his ENTIRE career he only finished top 5 in yards twice and TDs 3 times. Got flat out carried to Super Bowl wins by his defense and Davis. His post season TD INT ratio is borderline 1:1...

"He was clutch!"

"He has 2 rings!!"

So basically we have a glorified Eli Manning. I don't why he moved on from Tebow either. Tebow had that clutch gene in the bag. Led that bad Broncos team to the playoffs. 


This is your serious note? 
Oof....
 

Eli had 2 great playoff runs amid 15 years of mediocrity.    Was he ever a top 5 qb in the years he played?   Maybe once?    No one ever woke up on gameday and said “as long as we can contain Eli Manning we’ll have a shot.”  😆 

 

Tim Tebow once went 2 for 8 in an NFL game and the broncos WON.  He couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn.    The D was lights out despite TT’s simply dreadful qb play.  
 

Elway was one of the most feared qbs in the league for 15 years and had 5 SB appearances.  Carried by TD and the defense my azz...he was the reason Denver was so dominant for so long.   Anything else is revisionist history.  
 

Teams would gear their entire gameplan to trying to stop him.   He had that magic like Rodgers or Mahomes.   Shutting them down for 3 quarters isnt enough.   Mobile, playmaking gunslingers almost ALWAYS post lower completion numbers and more picks.   Tarkenton,  Elway,  Favre, Steve Young.....and on.   Mid 50’s to low 60s.   They’re never going to be Manning,  Brady, or Marino standing back there slicing and dicing.  
 

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6 hours ago, Impreza178 said:


This is your serious note? 
Oof....
 

Eli had 2 great playoff runs amid 15 years of mediocrity.    Was he ever a top 5 qb in the years he played?   Maybe once?    No one ever woke up on gameday and said “as long as we can contain Eli Manning we’ll have a shot.”  😆 

 

Tim Tebow once went 2 for 8 in an NFL game and the broncos WON.  He couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn.    The D was lights out despite TT’s simply dreadful qb play.  
 

Elway was one of the most feared qbs in the league for 15 years and had 5 SB appearances.  Carried by TD and the defense my azz...he was the reason Denver was so dominant for so long.   Anything else is revisionist history.  
 

Teams would gear their entire gameplan to trying to stop him.   He had that magic like Rodgers or Mahomes.   Shutting them down for 3 quarters isnt enough.   Mobile, playmaking gunslingers almost ALWAYS post lower completion numbers and more picks.   Tarkenton,  Elway,  Favre, Steve Young.....and on.   Mid 50’s to low 60s.   They’re never going to be Manning,  Brady, or Marino standing back there slicing and dicing.  
 

Elway went 12/22 for 123 yards with no TDs and an interception in a Super Bowl and won. Davis had more rushing yards than Elway had passing yards. 3 TDs to 8 INT in the biggest game in the NFL and you are going to argue that he had that crazy clutch gene. 

What are you talking about with Young? Young had 65% career completion percentage and led the league in the category for 5 years. He led the league in lowest interception percentage multiple times.Yes, Favre was a slinger but he made up for it by leading the league in yards and TDs multiple times. Elway never led the league in TDs and led the league in yards once. Like I said, Elway finished top 5 in yards twice and TDs 3 times in his entire career. This is while throwing picks left and right and being a slinger like you claim. 

During Elways first 10 years 15 QBs started 80 games. He ranks 14th in passer rating. So your argument that he was a top 5 QB all this time is wrong. Dudes stats were absolute trash for even his era. Dave Krieg had better stats over that period.Trust me, I know all about Dave Krieg and he wasn't very good at football. Elway was straight up trash for his first 10 years by elite QB standards.

So his entire case is built on 6 years. Yet during his peak glory years he was barely putting up top 5 numbers in terms of rating. Chris Chandler was putting up close numbers to him during his absolute peak years.

His claim is built on being an iron man and having good career numbers. You claim he was clutch...Sure he led his team to comebacks but he was still carried by his defense and arguably the best post season RB in history. 

- Sucked his first 10 years

- He was maybe borderline elite for his last 5-6 years

- Defense and RB carried him to Super Bowl wins. Obviously backed up by his horrible stats

So the claim is he was clutch and won some Super Bowls. Yeah, he is more Eli Manning than the guys he gets thrown in. Don't get me wrong, he is clearly better than Manning as he put up some legit elite years but he is closer to Manning than he is to Young that's for damn sure.

Also, this is not revisionist history. It's like talking bad about any QB from the 80s-90s era is NFL taboo. If Elway played in the modern NFL with all the modern analytics he would get absolutely slaughtered for his awful first 10 years. However, all people look at is he made some Super Bowls without any context.

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2 hours ago, Gohawks said:

If Elway played in the modern NFL with all the modern analytics he would get absolutely slaughtered for his awful first 10 years. However, all people look at is he made some Super Bowls without any context.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a front office following modern analytics would trade or cut Elway.

Maybe they would, but it would be the wrong decision.  That's on modern analytics.  Chad Pennington was a marvel of modern analytics due to his short passes and high completion percentage, and Elway was not.  But Elway was 10x the player. 

PFF and Football Outsiders and all these other outlets are trying hard to reduce an extraordinarily complicated series of interactions to a simple mathematical formula.  It doesn't work.

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2 hours ago, SharkSwimmer said:

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a front office following modern analytics would trade or cut Elway.

Maybe they would, but it would be the wrong decision.  That's on modern analytics.  Chad Pennington was a marvel of modern analytics due to his short passes and high completion percentage, and Elway was not.  But Elway was 10x the player. 

PFF and Football Outsiders and all these other outlets are trying hard to reduce an extraordinarily complicated series of interactions to a simple mathematical formula.  It doesn't work.

You are correct.

I don't need advanced stats to tell me Elway was mediocre his first 10 years and was straight trash by any measure in the Super Bowl.

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Elway's numbers suffer compared to the top quarterbacks of the current pass-happy era.  The rules and the game were different then.  

I doubt many of them could have taken the pounding that Elway did.

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On 5/22/2020 at 10:58 AM, SharkSwimmer said:

Prime Cam Newton has far more physical talent than Prime Elway.  But Elway was far clutcher and, ultimately, far more accomplished.

Brady has less physical talent than either, but he has been pretty clutch and had the best coach of all time putting him in position to win a lot of games.

Not a fan of either.  Physically they might be two of the most talented QB's ever.  But you can not compare Elway to Cam.  Elway had accuracy Cam never had.  Honestly ALLen reminds me of a young Elway.

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2 hours ago, dmb3684 said:

Is this the Elway thread or Josh Allen thread?

Josh Allen stinks at QB.

 

And yet Josh Allen's boosters in this thread are comparing Allen to Elway.  Which is a ludicrous comparison.  Hence the need to explain why Elway is and should be considered an all-timer, in stark contrast to Josh Allen.

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2 hours ago, Br0kenB said:

Diggs has one of the highest contested catch ratings in the entire NFL.

And Diggs has experience trying to track down errant passes.  He played with Bilgewater and Keenum ferchrissakes.

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