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Jordan vs LeBron - whos has the better defense?


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1 hour ago, cashvillesent said:

Its easy to say Jordans the GOAT in hindsight when you’re told to beleive that. It comes down to why, and most people that say that, cant tell you why. They, like you, run straight to numbers, as if its the tell all argument. When in actuality, if were going off of numbers, Kareem is the absolute GOAT. More NCAA Championships More NCAA Naismith Awards More Highschool Championships More Highschool Player of the year Awards More NBA MVPs More All NBA Honors More NBA All Defensive Team Honors More points More rebounds More assists More Blocks More allstars People have this love affair infatuation with MJ because he was the most EXCITING player and he transcended the game like no other. Guys that never watched him live outside of his final years try their best to tell you who he was as a player, based off of stats. Lol Jordan was dominating a league where 90% of the guys couldnt even dribble, drive, or finish with their off hand. There wasnt much skill compared to todays game. Jordan absolutely benefited more so than any superstar in NBA history when it came to the finals. Aids Magic and an old washed up Worthy. That team making the finals shows you how weak the West was at that point. A hurt Clyde Drexler who played on a torn meniscus and ligament strains with Terry Porter the next year. Old a** Jazz team twice with 3 players that averaged over 9 ppg and no depth with Howard Eisley as their 6th man. A good Seattle team but no legitimate 1st option on offense. There #1 scoring option (Kemp) was basically a modern day Montrez Harrell with more athleticism. Done believe me? Go watch an entire Seattle game from back then. Not a highlight reel. Kemp had little skill. Jordan was ahead of his time, but that doesnt make him the GOAT.

Look at what Jordan accomplished in 13 years with Chicago. His resume and per game numbers are absurd.

if he didn’t play those two years in Washington I think his per game average would be 32.0.

Another way of looking at it is if Jordan didn’t have both his retirements, meaning he played from 84-03 , he’d be the all time points leader and steals leader. I also read somewhere that he’d be top 10 in all time assists. 
 

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Lol why is Lebron even mentioned.

Lebron is undoubtedly one of the greats. I am a huge fan (even though that block on Iggy still haunts my ******** dreams ) but anytime I see "Lebron > Jordan " I automatically assume the person

Please do not even compare Jordan and LeBron  in the finals. One of them is winner (100% winning percentage in the finals), the other one is loser (37.5%).  Only categories where LeBron is better

10 hours ago, cashvillesent said:

Kevin Johnson played less than 50 games that year due to nagging ankle injuries, and was no longer the 20-10 guy you speak of. He averaged 16-7. He hurt his ankle in game 2 of the first round series, and ended up missing game 3. He continued to play through the injury during the rest of the playoffs, but wasnt himself. Definitely wasnt this guy you claim he is. Majerle was their second best player at that point. He was their best perimeter defender, and 3 point specialist. KJ that particular season was hurt basically the entire year. You keep taking days to come back with responses, because youre too busy googling your arguments for you. You obviously have no memeory of what was happening at the time. You think KJ was still this supreme elite pg the year Phoenix made the finals simply on googling stats from years past, but have no idea he was hurt all year. Phoenix didnt make the finalsthose (20-10 years). The year in question is 92 and 93. You can dance around it whatever way you want, but the fact of the matter is, KJ was injured and a shell of himself, which was another break for Jordan the year in question. Now, to Seattle. Again, Im going off of memory, because Im actually old enough to remember those teams, those players, and what they actually were. So lets say Kemp averaged 20, (which is 2 more points than I said he averaged) You really think 2 more points a game is a massive difference? Thank you for proving my point. When your teams leading scoring cant even get 20 a night, your chances at winning a chip are very very slim. That’s proven throughout history. Look it up, since you love Google. Again, Kemp was not very skilled. He was an ultra athletic big who got the majority of his points on fast breaks and power. You could not give him the ball in the playoffs when the game has always slowed down, defenses buckle down, and buckets become harder to obtain. You could not count on Seattles leading scorer (Kemp) to come up with big buckets in those clutch situations. I dont need google to tell me that. Theres things that google cant tell you, and you obviously cant come up with your own arguments because you dont quite grasp the annoyances of the game. And what does Jordan being their (Stockton/Malone) age have to do with anything? Im gonna tell you some more things google cant tell you. As you age, whats the main thing athletes lose? ATHLETICISM. Jordan is one of the greatest athletic specimens the game has ever seen. Even at age 33/34, he was still one of the best athletes in the game. The Jazz and their two primary players, were not so blessed with that god given ability. That team was old, slow, had no depth (google the numbers) and no secondary scoring option WHATSOEVER! And you mention allstars? Lol another google stat you need to pamper your argument. Let me guess, Stockton averaging 12-8 that last year they made the finals was better than what Jameer Nelson done in 09-10 the year Orlando put out Cleveland who was led by Bron and wait for it, Zdrunas Igaulskas? Jameer that year, was better than Stockton in 98. Also, Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis was better than Hornacek and Byron Russell that year, compared to the Jazz 3rd and 4th best players during their b2b finals run. Why arw you waiting 3-6 days to come up with a response? And why is your entire argument based on numbers. Watch some more ball my man. Anybody can sit on google for hours and sound like they know what theyre talking about.


Isnt it obvious why im taking so long to respond? We're all in quarantine and people are hardly writing anything on these forums over this week. There's literally been 1 reply i believe to my comment which was you. Am i required to check every day to respond to your delusions? Sorry buddy, i'd rather pass my time watching Netflix than to check daily for your response. Heck, youre lucky i even decided to look this morning. As far as using google to support my arguments, bro it takes less than 60 secs to check stats to support my argument instead of ranting off the top off my head with inaccurate numbers. Im old enough to remember these teams, but using stats to support my arguments makes them better.

As far as the Suns, even an injured KJ putting up 16 and 8 is far better than just a 3 pt specialist in Dan averaging about the same points. KJ played the entire finals and put up basically the same numbers. You cant sit here and tell me Dan was more important to that team. Also, what youre failing to understand about the Sonics is they had 2 guys flirting with 20 points a game nightly, plus also had two other 3pt shooters giving them 16 a game. They had a very balanced, really good offense that season. Guess how many teams in todays NBA (much faster paced, high scoring offenses) had at least 4 scorers putting up at least 16 a game this season? ONE. JUST ONE. 

As far as you saying Jameer in Orlando, the year they put out out Cleveland (it was actually 08-09, not 09-10), was better than Stockton in the finals, JAMEER DIDNT EVEN PLAY IN THE PLAYOFFS THAT YEAR. He hurt his shoulder mid season and was out for the year. Is your memory failing you? I didnt need google for that one. Dwights best options were Turk and Rashard. If your gonna sit there and tell me Turk and Rashard are better than Stockton and Hornacek based solely on their points per game, seriously, dont even bother replying. 

Clearly youve shown you like to lie and exaggerate for your argument (alotta these Lebron supporters seem to do that). You lied about Kemp averaging 20 by 2 points per game. Lets say i lied and said he averaged 22 (which he did in the finals). Makes my argument sound alot better now doesnt it? Heck let me lie and said he put up 24 and 11 in the finals, since lying about 2 pts means nothing to you. Another odd argument of yours seems to be that a player is better than another just if they average more points (Dan better than KJ, Jameer better than Stockton, Turk/Rashard better than Hornacek). That is one of the most ridiculous things ive ever heard in my life. 

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10 minutes ago, Jimmy21 said:

It's easy to say jordan was the better defender when pippen was guarding the opposing teams best offensive player.  

 

Fun fact. Jordan was the 3rd best (maybe) defender on the 96-98 bulls.

And yet  Jordan made it to NBA All-Defensive Team from 96 - 98.  Fun fake fact 😁

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5 hours ago, Jimmy21 said:

It's easy to say jordan was the better defender when pippen was guarding the opposing teams best offensive player.  

 

Fun fact. Jordan was the 3rd best (maybe) defender on the 96-98 bulls.

Lets just say he was 3rd best behind rodman and pippen. Um hes still a way better defender than lebron james so whats your point?

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On 4/6/2020 at 11:28 PM, cashvillesent said:

Its easy to say Jordans the GOAT in hindsight when you’re told to beleive that. It comes down to why, and most people that say that, cant tell you why. They, like you, run straight to numbers, as if its the tell all argument. When in actuality, if were going off of numbers, Kareem is the absolute GOAT. More NCAA Championships More NCAA Naismith Awards More Highschool Championships More Highschool Player of the year Awards More NBA MVPs More All NBA Honors More NBA All Defensive Team Honors More points More rebounds More assists More Blocks More allstars People have this love affair infatuation with MJ because he was the most EXCITING player and he transcended the game like no other. Guys that never watched him live outside of his final years try their best to tell you who he was as a player, based off of stats. Lol Jordan was dominating a league where 90% of the guys couldnt even dribble, drive, or finish with their off hand. There wasnt much skill compared to todays game. Jordan absolutely benefited more so than any superstar in NBA history when it came to the finals. Aids Magic and an old washed up Worthy. That team making the finals shows you how weak the West was at that point. A hurt Clyde Drexler who played on a torn meniscus and ligament strains with Terry Porter the next year. Old a** Jazz team twice with 3 players that averaged over 9 ppg and no depth with Howard Eisley as their 6th man. A good Seattle team but no legitimate 1st option on offense. There #1 scoring option (Kemp) was basically a modern day Montrez Harrell with more athleticism. Done believe me? Go watch an entire Seattle game from back then. Not a highlight reel. Kemp had little skill. Jordan was ahead of his time, but that doesnt make him the GOAT.

Well you know i mean magic johnson larry bird charles barkley shaq lebron james, sports analyst who have covered the nba for decades, coaches gms etc. all have stated time and time again hes goat and theres numbers and video to prove it. Why mention kareem? He played 20 straight seasons and playing 1560 regular season games compared to michael jordan 15 seasons and playing 1072 games including 1 retirement in his prime where he lost 2 seasons of prime numbers and another retirement where he came back as a 38 year old who hadnt played in 3 years so of course had jordan played all seasons from 1984 until 2003 straight he would have had more regular season mvps than kareem along with being all time points leader. In fact if we just look at 10 prime seasons of kareem and compare it to 10 prime seasons of jordan, jordan smokes him in accomplishments and numbers. Only thing kareem would have over him is rebounds blocks and fg %. Also college is overrated and high school accolades? Really my guy? Really high school? Anyway the coach for north carolina didnt even believe in michael jordan and only gave him 7 shots per game during his college days being second fiddle to james worthy while kareem right out the gate was the go to number 1 option on a team system perfect for a big man like him. 

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9 hours ago, Johnnyapplebot said:

Lets just say he was 3rd best behind rodman and pippen. Um hes still a way better defender than lebron james so whats your point?

 

 Rodman made first NBA All-Defensive Team 8 times,  in 1989-93, 1995, 1996

Jordan  made it in 9 times,  1988–1993, 1996–1998

Pippen made it 8 times, 1991–92 to 1998–99

From 96-98, Rodman made only one NBA All-Defensive Team in 1996, Jordan and Pippen made it 3 times.

My point is:  I trust NBA folks when they select All-NBA teams more than opinions expressed  on RW forums.

Jordan and Pippen were 2 best Chicago defenders from 96-98,  Rodman is 3rd

 

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On 4/6/2020 at 1:03 PM, cashvillesent said:

And we can go on and on about the teams Jordan played in the finals. They cant even compare to the Spurs, Warriors, Thunder teams LeBron played. Jordan beat an old a** injured Lakers and Portland teams that didnt even have a player playing at an elite level, as I already pointed out. A Suns team whos second best player was Dan Majerle, a Supersonics team that didnt have a single player average over 18ppg, and two b2b Jazz teams lead by two past their prime hall of famers in their mid 30’s, and that team only had 3 players averaging over 9ppg (Malone, Hornacek, Stockton) Hornacek was their 2nd leading scorer at 14ppg. Its no secret amongst pundits and experts that really follow the game, that Jordan is the luckiest Superstar by the competition he faced in the finals.

This is an embarrassing take that Bronsexuals always use. Why just Finals? Talk about the teams in the East Jordan went through to get there. Who were the best teams LeBron beat in the East?

So here’s the thing. The case for LeBron was always he did so much with so little help. And he did. Acknowledged. But Bron lost any chance to be the GOAT when he assembled his team of stars, met the Mavs in the Finals with just one star (yes other good players, but Dirk). And he didn’t just lose. LeBron lost the series and was the THIRD leading scorer on his own team. Third. Now you tell me, what GOAT goes out like that? Sits back as third fiddle on offense when their team loses?

We both know the answer. None.

Go watch the video of KG and Isaiah Rider talking about talking trash to Jordan. Everyone was afraid of him lol. No one will tell stories like that about LeBron.

And finally, as my man Chauncey Billups explained, Jordan kept many HOFers (Ewing, Malone, Barkley) from getting a ring. When he played a full season, nobody ate. Everybody got rings on LeBron’s watch. 🤷🏽‍♂️

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I just watched 1st half of game 3, 2014 finals  where Spurs scored 71  point  (75.8% FG%) in first half against LeBron and the Heat.   Can somebody remind me when something like that happened to Jordan?

P.S.  "Bronsexuals" - that is a good one 😂

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On 4/7/2020 at 1:03 AM, cashvillesent said:

And we can go on and on about the teams Jordan played in the finals. They cant even compare to the Spurs, Warriors, Thunder teams LeBron played. Jordan beat an old a** injured Lakers and Portland teams that didnt even have a player playing at an elite level, as I already pointed out. A Suns team whos second best player was Dan Majerle, a Supersonics team that didnt have a single player average over 18ppg, and two b2b Jazz teams lead by two past their prime hall of famers in their mid 30’s, and that team only had 3 players averaging over 9ppg (Malone, Hornacek, Stockton) Hornacek was their 2nd leading scorer at 14ppg. Its no secret amongst pundits and experts that really follow the game, that Jordan is the luckiest Superstar by the competition he faced in the finals.

lol~ the spurs team that beat lebron heat in 14 nobody avg more than 18 pts and TD is 37 and Manu is 36 way past their prime~ Lebron is the luckiest Superstar by the competition he faced in East and finals and yet still lost so many times~

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On 4/7/2020 at 9:57 PM, Jimmy21 said:

It's easy to say jordan was the better defender when pippen was guarding the opposing teams best offensive player.  

 

Fun fact. Jordan was the 3rd best (maybe) defender on the 96-98 bulls.

Nobodys saying Jordan isnt a better scorer. But when you take 5 more fied goal attempts a game in the playoffs than LeBron, you should have a higher per game average. You can tell unequivocally that you dont watch the game enough to develop a formulated opinion, nor remember the player Jordan was. You need google stats to make your argument for you, and again, if were going by that, Kareem is the goat. Also, by this “stats dont lie” argument, Emmitt Smith would be the greatest runningback of alltime, considering his stats and per games are all very high on alltime lists, but you’d find very few pundits that would have him even in thier top 5. Theres so many other variables you arent advanced enough to enter into an intellectual debate about. Its, “Jordan won 6 rings and his scoring.” Thats it. On tape, Bron can do more, and is the better all around player.

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3 hours ago, cashvillesent said:

 

FB-IMG-1587678936689.jpg

 

In the 2016 Finals Lebron was the only player in NBA History to lead both teams in those categories for a 7 game series. Literally has only. happened one time, and against the best regular season team of all-time.  

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On 4/24/2020 at 6:22 AM, cashvillesent said:

Nobodys saying Jordan isnt a better scorer. But when you take 5 more fied goal attempts a game in the playoffs than LeBron, you should have a higher per game average. You can tell unequivocally that you dont watch the game enough to develop a formulated opinion, nor remember the player Jordan was. You need google stats to make your argument for you, and again, if were going by that, Kareem is the goat. Also, by this “stats dont lie” argument, Emmitt Smith would be the greatest runningback of alltime, considering his stats and per games are all very high on alltime lists, but you’d find very few pundits that would have him even in thier top 5. Theres so many other variables you arent advanced enough to enter into an intellectual debate about. Its, “Jordan won 6 rings and his scoring.” Thats it. On tape, Bron can do more, and is the better all around player.

 

And yet he won less. Not to mention the lost in 11 against dirk. Bron post 8 total points in a finals game and got outplay by Terry in the series. Bron disqualified after that point and solidified his ceiling as the #2-3.

BTW Bron is not even the 2nd best player of all time yet. KAJ is and the has a far better case for the goat argument.

 

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As someone who really knows nothing about MJ Bulls beyond a few highlights and documentary snippets here and there, The Last Dance really helped me put in perspective. Glad they're showing this.

 

I still favor LeBron though. I grew up on LeBron. Kinda hard for a mid 20 - early 30 year old fan to say otherwise.

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As far as today right this very moment, I prefer Kawhi or Durant. All around players; no weaknesses besides health.

 

LeBron still the best power player. But you have to surround him with snipers and defenders willing to play on the perimeter.

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Please do not even compare Jordan and LeBron  in the finals. One of them is winner (100% winning percentage in the finals), the other one is loser (37.5%). 

Only categories where LeBron is better than Jordan in the finals are:

LeBron   vs Jordan  finals stats

GP  49 vs 35
PPG 28.2 vs 33.6
RPG 10 vs 6
APG 7.7 vs 6.0
SPG 1.8 vs 1.8
BPG 0.9 vs 0.7
3PM 1.8 vs 1.2
FG% 47.2 vs 48.1
FT% 73.9 vs 80.6
TPG 4.0 vs 2.8
FGM 10.6 vs 12.5
FGA 22.5 vs 26.0
3PA 5.1 vs 3.3
3P% 34.3 vs 36.8
FTM 5.2 vs 7.4
FTA 7.1 vs 9.1
+/- -122 vs +45
Titles  3 vs 6
Finals 8 vs 6

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lebron-james-averages-in-the-finals

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/michael-jordan-averages-in-the-finals

 

 
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Who cares. But I’ll still chip in.

Lebron has showed he can be a great defender, however he chooses his moments. Jordan on the other didn’t just choose the moment. For the most part every play was the moment. 

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