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18 minutes ago, BMcP said:

WR hits: Literally one (Edelman) during the last fifth of a century.

TE hits: 3 in twenty years.  Took Hernandez despite (insert understatement of the century) “character concerns.”  Some dude named Gronk that at least one team (Raiders) graded as the best player in the entire draft class.  And Watson.

Belichick is a defensive genius and rightfully deserves that term - as far as receiving options go...not so much.

 

Yes, we've talked about the wide receiver thing, wide receivers don't play TE fortunately--we have been talking about talent evaluation across the board in this debate. Why would he have needed more TE's when he already drafted good ones? When you draft great players at a position you tend to not need to spend significant draft capital at said position. Oakland could have drafted Gronk, they didn't. So could every other team, they didn't. Yes, Bill B is a defensive genius, in order to be able to maximize that genius he has needed to draft good defensive players, which he has been excellent at.

Do you see how problematic your arguments are: GM X was bad at drafting X position therefore he's nothing special at evaluating talent in general. Some teams had a guy that team X drafted rated higher, therefore the GM of team X is nothing special when it comes to drafting. Circular reasoning is tiring.

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When Jonnu sees Firsker ball out.

Love the talent of Jonnu Smith - unsure of the opportunity. Dude is a freak athlete - 93rd percentile SPARQ score, 100th percentile breakout age, 92nd percentile college dominator rating.  So the

I'm here to say that I started this forum and I hope you all listened. Congrats if you did.

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1 minute ago, paulwall29 said:

 

Yes, we've talked about the wide receiver thing, wide receivers don't play TE fortunately--we have been talking about talent evaluation across the board in this debate. Why would he have needed more TE's when he already drafted good ones? Oakland could have drafted Gronk, they didn't. So could every other team, they didn't. Do you see how problematic your arguments are: GM X was bad at drafting X position therefore he's nothing special at evaluating talent in general. Some teams had a guy that team X drafted rated higher, therefore the GM of team X is nothing special when it comes to drafting. Circular reasoning is tiring.

Don’t you see how problematic your argument is?!  We are obviously referring to offense here - at least so I hope?  It’s entirely possible for certain individuals - especially Belichick - to know more about defense than offense.  The fact that a terrible GM decided to pass on Gronk for a consensus first-rounder doesn’t surprise me.

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22 minutes ago, BMcP said:

Don’t you see how problematic your argument is?!  We are obviously referring to offense here - at least so I hope?  It’s entirely possible for certain individuals - especially Belichick - to know more about defense than offense.  The fact that a terrible GM decided to pass on Gronk for a consensus first-rounder doesn’t surprise me.

 

When did I say anything about him knowing more about offense than defense?

You used that GM's evaluation as an example against Bill B and now you're rendering your own point irrelevant. 

And yes, as we've talked about, he has clearly shown the ability to evaluate TE's (part of that is viewing them from the perspective of a defensive genius as he was when talking about Jonnue). But according to you we can't say that for sure since he hasn't drafted an excessive amount of them over his tenure. The point is that Bill B is one of the best football minds around (non-debatable) and part of that, in particular his being GM as well as coach, is being a great player evaluator.

Here you go:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1579957-who-is-the-best-drafting-team-in-the-nfl

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2017/04/28/which-nfl-teams-have-been-the-best-and-worst-at-drafting/#1214150f5dcd

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/nfl-draft-performance-grades-best-drafting-teams-picks-classes-2012-2016

It's crazy thinking about how much better he would look if he ever had high first round picks. I know, I know these articles are dumb blah blah blah here is an article showing he sucks etc. etc. etc. I wish you the best of luck on continuing to make one of the silliest arguments of all time.

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1 minute ago, paulwall29 said:

 

When did I say anything about him knowing more about offense than defense?

You used that GM's evaluation as an example against Bill B and now you're rendering your own point irrelevant. 

And yes, as we've talked about, he has clearly shown the ability to evaluate TE's (part of that is viewing them from the perspective of a defensive genius as he was when talking about Jonnue). But according to you we can't say that for sure since he hasn't drafted an excessive amount of them over his tenure. The point is that Bill B is one of the best football minds around (non-debatable) and part of that, in particular his being GM as well as coach, is being a great player evaluator.

Here you go:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1579957-who-is-the-best-drafting-team-in-the-nfl

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2017/04/28/which-nfl-teams-have-been-the-best-and-worst-at-drafting/#1214150f5dcd

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/nfl-draft-performance-grades-best-drafting-teams-picks-classes-2012-2016

It's crazy thinking about how much better he would look if he ever had high first round picks. I wish you the best of luck on continuing to make one of the silliest arguments of all time.

You didn’t.  I did - because we aren’t talking about defensive players.

I never did what you allege - I brought it up to illustrate how bad GMs often second-guess themselves and go against the BPA grain.

I agree with your point about evaluating TEs from that defense-minded perspective.  I’m just saying Gronk and Hernandez didn’t require extensive analysis to understand their potential in the NFL.

Last two first-round picks?  Michel and Harry.  ‘Nuff said.

 

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Just now, BMcP said:

You didn’t.  I did - because we aren’t talking about defensive players.

I never did what you allege - I brought it up to illustrate how bad GMs often second-guess themselves and go against the BPA grain.

I agree with your point about evaluating TEs from that defense-minded perspective.  I’m just saying Gronk and Hernandez didn’t require extensive analysis to understand their potential in the NFL.

Last two first-round picks?  Michel and Harry.  ‘Nuff said.

 

 

Hahahahahaha yes, you're right we can erase his entire draft history because of Sony Michel (who has been injured his entire career) and Harry who might as well not even continue his career. I can't believe these are real life arguments you're making.

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1 minute ago, paulwall29 said:

 

Hahahahahaha yes, you're right we can erase his entire draft history because of Sony Michel (who has been injured his entire career) and Harry who might as well not even continue his career. I can't believe these are real life arguments you're making.

Please stop embarrassing yourself here.

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7 minutes ago, BMcP said:

Please stop embarrassing yourself here.

 

Yes, I'm very embarrassed to be siding with Bill B being a great player evaluator 🤣

Clearly you didn't read any of the articles I posted, because it seems there are many other people that have evaluated him as a good drafter despite Sony Michel and N'Keal Harry (who shouldn't play anymore because you know he's not good).

Would you mind explaining to me what constitutes being a good player evaluator? Because apparently if you ever miss a pick you suck, but if you make good picks you suck because other teams also thought those players were good.

 

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8 hours ago, BMcP said:

Thank you for your response.  I assume you have evidence of his being an elite talent evaluator then?  (NB: His last few drafts will not be of much help, I’m afraid.)

P.S.  Colt McCoy, the former Browns D and Adam Gase were all terrible misses on his part.

 

d6951ee1465e5f67a7abae5d0ed4c5fd_md.jpg.cf.jpg

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3 hours ago, paulwall29 said:

Still the most mind boggling debate I've had in all the years I've been on these boards.

 

We obviously don't understand the difference between when Belichick is just being nice about an opponent and when he is truly giving an assessment of a players attributes 

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6 hours ago, this guy right here said:

Is this Jonnu Smith's 2020 Season Outlook?

 

Yes, his outlook is good because Bill B thinks he's special and Bill B is one of the best player evaluators in the league. I just saved you two pages of a sludge fest.

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7 hours ago, paulwall29 said:

 

Yes, his outlook is good because Bill B thinks he's special and Bill B is one of the best player evaluators in the league. I just saved you two pages of a sludge fest.

WaterloggedSecondJumpingbean-size_restri

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Love the talent of Jonnu Smith - unsure of the opportunity.

Dude is a freak athlete - 93rd percentile SPARQ score, 100th percentile breakout age, 92nd percentile college dominator rating.  So the athleticism is there for sure.

If you take a deeper look at his efficiency, he was excellent there as well.  #2 in target separation, #6 in QB rating when targeted, #2 in yards per target and #7 in true catch rate.  A number of different metrics that say Smith is productive and beastly when given the opportunity.  However, what is his opportunity?

Last year the Titans were #30 in team pass plays and I imagine they're looking to keep the same identity that got them to the AFC Championship game last year.  Last year Delanie Walker appeared in 7 games, so just by Smith being #1 and Walker leaving, I think that will enhance his opportunity a bit.  Plus after seeing the playoff games last year, I imagine teams will hunker down and sell out to stop Derrick Henry (easier said than done) and force Tanny to throw more.  Both factors could lead in a jump in targets for Smith, leading to more overall production.

Last year he finished the season with 35-439-3 on 45 targets.  Last year Smith received 2.75 targets per game, which ranked #41 in the league amongst TEs.  The top 14 TEs last year received 5 targets a game or better.  If Smith can at least get to 5 targets per game, that'll give him 80 targets on the season, and his stats should reflect an outcome of about 60-750-5.  80 targets would have ranked #12 amongst TEs last year, so not a huge stretch.  And if you include guys like Hunter Henry and Evan Engram who missed time, it would put him down at #14, so again, not a huge stretch to think he could be the #14 targeted TE in the league, given Delanie Walker is no longer there, and honestly Jonnu might be the #2 passing option within that offense.  Those stats would have landed him at TE8 last year in PPR.  If Smith can get into the upper tier, 6-8 targets per game, we're talking top end production.

What if I'm wrong and Jonnu only gets 4 targets per game?  Stats say we should expect an output of 48 catches, 600 yards and 4 TDs - TE12.  I honestly think this is the floor for Jonnu.  25 TEs received 4 targets or higher last year per game.  

Currently ranked as the TE18 on FantasyPros, and TE19 ADP on FCC, there is incredible baked in value with Jonnu.  TEs also take a bit of time to acclimate to the NFL, and entering year 4 this could be the season we see this athletic freak truly break into TE1 status.

 

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8 hours ago, Gohawks said:

Breaking news: Professional athlete works out and is very fit.

 

Says the guy with the picture of the shredded athlete in his handle. Reminds me of a story I heard about a black pot and a kettle...

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On 5/21/2020 at 1:40 PM, paulwall29 said:

 

Says the guy with the picture of the shredded athlete in his handle. Reminds me of a story I heard about a black pot and a kettle...

 

How appropriate you put the two together...black pot and avatar.  😁

 

By design?

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