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2021 Universal DH Debate Thread


2ndCitySox
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2 hours ago, mks said:

Yep the dh dorks always come out the loudest when a pitcher gets hurt batting. DH in the NL will be the death of the sport.  We have to many DH's who can't field run or throw in baseball already. If you can't field one of the 9 fielding positions you don't get to hit. 

There is a thread that is xx pages long talking about “sad about state of hitting” and your argument is “let’s make sure pitchers hit because…tradition???”

Every other major sport has made changes to adapt as athletes improve - NFL, NBA, Golf, NHL - what will kill baseball is an unwillingness to do the same. 
 

Pitchers represent multimillion dollar investments and I don’t think it’s wrong for owners to want to protect those investments by avoiding something that dramatically increases the chance of injury, provides marginal gain and only exists because tradition dictates it. 
 

Baseball wants more offense and less injuries - universal DH is a logical move in that direction. 

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Interesting thread..people here are clamoring for the dh to protect pitchers so they don't have to hit or run right? just pitch..what about the come backers? They cause injuries to pitchers too, or even the simple act of fielding their position, getting to 1st base to cover, that causes injuries too, or collisions with the runners while covering a base... if the goal is for pitchers to just pitch so theres less chance for injuries, give them the batting practice screen so theres no chance for them to get injured due to come backers, and have a player with a glove standing next to the pitcher in the event there's a play at 1b where the pitcher needs to cover, have that person cover so there's no chance of the pitcher getting injured while doing his job..they're signed to just pitch, not to field, right?

What about the hitters getting injured on the  field? Shouldn't they have df's? (designated fielders) so they can just hit? Have defensive specialists that are weak with the bat play the field, and call them just fielders, and hitters just hitters..Robert and Eloy would still be playing if they had df's no?  And dr's? (designated runners) too? Every time a hitter gets a hit, the dr stands in line with the batters box,  and when the hitter hits the ball, the runners take it from there,  so there's no chance of hitters pulling hammys, or groins, calf strains, etc, Trout wouldn't have gotten hurt running the bases, right? I mean, they were signed to hit, right? So let them just hit...

Baseball is trending towards becoming a hybrid between baseball and softball, runner on 2nd in extras, pitch clock, 7 inning double headers, shifting so there are 4 sometimes 5 outfielders, lowering the mound and moving it back a foot, sheesh, where does it end? Pitch underhand so there are no more bean-balls? No more feelings being hurt? All in the name of attracting the younger generations? Come on man, the game isn't the game anymore, ..What happened? I'll tell you: The old schoolers are being told that the new generation is soft, so they need to stop being baseball purists and let them play their version of, cough, cough, baseball... oldschoolers are told not to play the way THEY were taught, don't pitch high and tight, don't send messages, don't swing when it's 3-0 in a blowout against position players pitching, no more breaking up double plays, even with clean slides, don't hit the catcher ( the Posey rule, why wasn't it implemented after Fosse's career was ended in that all-star game when Rose plowed him? He was never the same after that,, I'll tell you why, players were tough back then, as Tom Hanks said, "There's no crying in baseball", but someone forgot to tell the younger generations. Old schoolers handled things themselves on the field, but after the games, they all drank together..The kids want to showboat, flip bats, talk mad stuff, have epic celebrations after a game winner, in April, but best not retaliate with a high and tight fastball..I'm for enjoying the game, but have some class, you can't have it one way and not the other...Nolan Ryan was a beast, So was Randy Johnson, Curt Shilling, they threw high 90's- 100, but you never heard anyone complain that it was unfair, that there needs to be changes so that hitters have a better chance at a hit against them....Look, I get that there needs changes, but not to the basic fundamental aspect of the game, teach the kids to be hitters, not 3 true outcome players that we see today, ban the shift, stop messing with the balls. Let's just face the fact that baseball isn't baseball anymore, it's become a softball hybrid, might as well hire Vince McMahon and change the name to ultimate baseball.

The game as we knew it growing up in the 60's and 70's, is dead, it died right along side of honor, respect and integrity..

But I do love fantasy baseball, too bad I can't stand watching the spoiled kids these days......GET OFF MY LAWN!!

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12 hours ago, mks said:

Yep the dh dorks always come out the loudest when a pitcher gets hurt batting. DH in the NL will be the death of the sport.  We have to many DH's who can't field run or throw in baseball already. If you can't field one of the 9 fielding positions you don't get to hit. 

No it won't.  

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I think there are generally two legitimate reasons any sport should change:

1. Any change made to protect player health - especially long term player health is good. For example the targeting rule in football - yes it takes away violent “exciting” hits - it also protects from brain / neck injuries with potential lifelong consequences. 
 

2. Arbitrary changes made to improve overall game environment. For example the three point line, Overtime changes in the NFL, lengthening PGA courses.

Baseball has generally been the slowest to make changes for both of these reasons and the most cited reason for hesitancy has been “tradition.”

At the end of the day baseball is a very large, very profitable business. It makes money primarily through ad sales, tv deals and butts in seats - wins more than anything else drive value. Smart teams have realized and prioritized a game which allows them to win games but doesn’t necessarily put the most “watchable” product on the field. 
 

When baseball fans are surveyed most agree they want: more balls in play, more stolen bases, more contact, less strikeouts, more triples, faster game times. The universal DH is a small step in the right direction but I think MLB needs to get far more aggressive to implement changes. 

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16 hours ago, Overlord said:

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Actually the answer to this question is pretty easy & I haven't seen anyone offer this...

Why not allow the home teams decide on a daily basis whether or not the DH will be in the lineup as a strategic tool for home-field advantage? If you have a pitcher that hits well, maybe that day you decide on no DH?  If your opponent is starting a good hitting pitcher & you're not, you call for a DH instead? Personally I think using it strategically makes sense & would satisfy both sides of the argument

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2 hours ago, lvsaint429 said:

Actually the answer to this question is pretty easy & I haven't seen anyone offer this...

Why not allow the home teams decide on a daily basis whether or not the DH will be in the lineup as a strategic tool for home-field advantage? If you have a pitcher that hits well, maybe that day you decide on no DH?  If your opponent is starting a good hitting pitcher & you're not, you call for a DH instead? Personally I think using it strategically makes sense & would satisfy both sides of the argument

I really wonder if any manager would opt to bat pitchers in a game. I get the idea, if you’ve got a crappy DH and you’re playing the Angels, just go pitchers so you don’t have to face Ohtani.  I still wonder if teams would rather face Shohei than risk injury to their SP.

If that strategy did work, then basically no Shohei on the road unless he’s pitching?  That sucks.

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57 minutes ago, 89Topps said:

I really wonder if any manager would opt to bat pitchers in a game. I get the idea, if you’ve got a crappy DH and you’re playing the Angels, just go pitchers so you don’t have to face Ohtani.  I still wonder if teams would rather face Shohei than risk injury to their SP.

If that strategy did work, then basically no Shohei on the road unless he’s pitching?  That sucks.

Exactly. If this was allowed in the past, how many managers would have pitchers hit instead of facing Ortiz, Thome, Ramirez, or Martinez?

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1 minute ago, lvsaint429 said:

Exactly. If this was allowed in the past, how many managers would have pitchers hit instead of facing Ortiz, Thome, Ramirez, or Martinez?

And that's what you would want?  No road games for any of those guys?

And I don't even know that managers would risk their pitchers rather than face those guys.

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I just want the MLB to pick one and make it Universal. The worst part is AL and NL being so different yet competing for the same trophy.

 

If they go universal with pitchers hitting, start training pitchers to swing a bat, run and bunt (maybe if they train more for it they won't be so fragile).  Or just forfeit the out and don't run your pitcher out there to waste time and/or get hurt (unless you have 1 of the very few pitchers in the league that can actually make contact with the ball).

 

If they go universal DH, stop with the 7 inning games and the extra innings man on 2nd.

 

I'm half being sarcastic, but make up your mind MLB and take action before the sport dies off.

 

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Posted (edited)

 

3 hours ago, mks said:

IF baseball don't want pitchers hitting then why don't they just go to a 8 hitter lineup?  

It's not a bad idea (as has been discussed in this thread), players union would never go for it though. Also lots of people would lose their mind on the more PAs players would be getting effecting records. But I'd rather have that than seeing pitchers hit, for sure.

Edited by brockpapersizer
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3 hours ago, mks said:

IF baseball don't want pitchers hitting then why don't they just go to a 8 hitter lineup?  

I mentioned this previously. It's the ultimate solution and ultimate compromise IMO. 

It also increases plate appearences for star players.

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1 hour ago, 89Topps said:

And that's what you would want?  No road games for any of those guys?

And I don't even know that managers would risk their pitchers rather than face those guys.

What I want is players earning AB’s by playing the field. It makes managers decide how important a player is to the starting lineup. If he’s that good a hitter, then deal with the fielding issues. If poor defense isn’t worth 4-5 AB’s, bench him

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On 6/2/2021 at 8:19 PM, mudrummer said:

There is a thread that is xx pages long talking about “sad about state of hitting” and your argument is “let’s make sure pitchers hit because…tradition???”

Every other major sport has made changes to adapt as athletes improve - NFL, NBA, Golf, NHL - what will kill baseball is an unwillingness to do the same. 
 

Pitchers represent multimillion dollar investments and I don’t think it’s wrong for owners to want to protect those investments by avoiding something that dramatically increases the chance of injury, provides marginal gain and only exists because tradition dictates it. 
 

Baseball wants more offense and less injuries - universal DH is a logical move in that direction. 

If baseball teams want to protect there million dollar investments then they should put a roof on every staduim so they don't have to play on wet fields and they can keep the temps at room temp so that the cold weather don;t cause pulled hammys or other things.  If they want to avoid something that dramatically increses the chance of injury then they should ban pitchers all together and just use a pitching machine. Maybe they should avoid having batters bat too so they don't get hurt by getting hit with the ball or swinging a bat.  Running bases also increases your chances of injury perhaps we stop having them run bases too.  DH is the death of baseball just like all those other sports you mentioned once they started changing rules the fans walked away from the game. I walked from the NBA cause its just a 3 point shooting contest and I walked from the NFL cause you are not allowed to hit anyone anymore. IF DH goes to NL I walk from baseball too got no problem with that. 

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1 hour ago, lvsaint429 said:

Exactly. If this was allowed in the past, how many managers would have pitchers hit instead of facing Ortiz, Thome, Ramirez, or Martinez?

Edgar Mart was only half a baseball player. To be a whole baseball player you must be able to do both field and hit and even run bases well. Baseball is a multi skill sport. Speciallizing in Baseball IMO has ruined it.

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31 minutes ago, mks said:

Edgar Mart was only half a baseball player. To be a whole baseball player you must be able to do both field and hit and even run bases well. Baseball is a multi skill sport. Speciallizing in Baseball IMO has ruined it.

😆

Helluva a “half a player” though.  Half of Edgar Martinez was still better than 99% of everyone else.

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I'm a fan of the "double hook" rule they're testing in the Atlantic League this year. You start with the DH, but you lose it once your starting pitcher leaves the game.

It works on a lot of levels. It encourages starting pitchers to go deeper into games and discourages openers/bullpen days and other unorthodox pitching strategies. It gets rid of the stupid elements of NL strategy, like the .600 OPS 8th batter getting intentionally walked or an SP who's dealing getting pulled after 60 pitches because his lineup spot came up with the bases loaded and two outs, but keeps the interesting ones like the late-game double switch. And the end result is we still don't actually have to watch pitchers bat.

The only downside I see is that when your SP gets injured or rocked and comes out early, your stud DH has to go with him, if you have one. There might be other downsides I don't see, but I think it's an idea worthy of serious consideration.

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2 hours ago, Members_Only_76 said:

I just want the MLB to pick one and make it Universal. The worst part is AL and NL being so different yet competing for the same trophy.

 

If they go universal with pitchers hitting, start training pitchers to swing a bat, run and bunt (maybe if they train more for it they won't be so fragile).  Or just forfeit the out and don't run your pitcher out there to waste time and/or get hurt (unless you have 1 of the very few pitchers in the league that can actually make contact with the ball).

 

If they go universal DH, stop with the 7 inning games and the extra innings man on 2nd.

 

I'm half being sarcastic, but make up your mind MLB and take action before the sport dies off.

 

Figure It Out GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

One thing that absolutely, 100% will not happen, is the league getting rid of the DH in the AL. 

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2 hours ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

It's not a bad idea (as has been discussed in this thread), players union would never go for it though. Also lots of people would lose their mind on the more PAs players would be getting effecting records. But I'd rather have that than seeing pitchers hit, for sure.

As for the players union never going for it is very true. Tony Clark is on record as saying there is nothing wrong with baseball and the way it is played. I realize it is trendy to blame Manfred and the owners for all the woes in baseball but when the head of the union doesn't realize his sport is slowly dying is there gong to be a common ground? Or is the union and players just concerned about getting theirs?

 

As for the 7 inning DH and the runner at 2nd base my understanding is that is a 1 year rule changes to help avoid wear and tear on pitchers. The union did agree to this for one year. For Manfred to get it in without union approval he needs to propose it one year and then wait a year to institute it. 

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35 minutes ago, 89Topps said:

One thing that absolutely, 100% will not happen, is the league getting rid of the DH in the AL. 

 

Yeah was being sarcastic with some of my post, just silly IMO to have AL and NL be so different but competing for the same thing. And the way the MLB has shifted away from "small ball" and basically giving up an out every time a pitcher bats, I lean towards Universal DH.

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23 hours ago, treat88 said:

I guess I just dont get the premise.  A pitcher is one of the 9 guys on the field, why shouldn't they be expected to hit like every other position?

The other 8 are standing there and fielding a ball that may be hit their way. 
A pitcher is using his specific skill set to fire a ball at 90+ mph ~100 times per game in an attempt to get the other team from not getting on base.  
Surely you see the difference. 

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