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2021 Universal DH Debate Thread


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14 hours ago, Backdoor Slider said:

The other 8 are standing there and fielding a ball that may be hit their way. 
A pitcher is using his specific skill set to fire a ball at 90+ mph ~100 times per game in an attempt to get the other team from not getting on base.  
Surely you see the difference. 

The point being that it is just too physically demanding to have to bat and pitch?  I guess I just dont see batting as quite that taxing.  If that is the case, catchers shouldnt have to hit either right? They use their specific skill 100+ times per game to block a ball coming at them 90+ miles per hour and spend most of their night squatting in the dirt.  That seems like a tougher and just as specialized of a job.  Why pitchers and not catchers?

Im being a bit facetious for effect but by the same logic, why make guys play the field and hit at all?  Just have offensive teams and defensive teams so that guys can only do what they are specialized at.  Shoot have a baserunning team as well so the risk of hitters getting hurt is lessened and we dont have to watch 1Bmen lumber around the basepaths.  Guys should only have to do what they are good at, right?

Pitching is obviously a unique position.  I just dont see it as unique enough they shouldnt have to play the game like every other position.  I obviously get the argument that people pay to see pitchers pitch and taking their ABs does marginally, very marginally IMO, increase their risk of injury.  I get that.  I just disagree that is enough reason to treat them differently.  Throw in that if a pitcher chooses to pitch in and attack a guys hands or outright plunk a guy, well, he should get to come to the plate and get the same treatment.

Every other spot plays both ways I think pitchers, unique or not, should as well.

 

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Who determines "the way it was meant to be played?" It sounds like you really just mean "the way the game was played when I grew to love it, is the way it should stay forever."  Sorry to be the one to

We really need to get back to this, guys:  (Not sure what is actually happening but HADUKEN!)

You don't actually think that, do you? That seems like a very out of place line of thinking for someone who spends their free time on a fantasy baseball message board. I'm reminded of that scene

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7 hours ago, desert86 said:

Has anyone mentioned how much better football got when players stopped going both ways and specialized? Different sports but I think it's along the same lines. 

Two way players playing offensively & defensively is what like 60 years ago?

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10 minutes ago, desert86 said:

pitchers hitting is 152 years old, should be long dead then...

Then the sport is dead...

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35 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

Two way players playing offensively & defensively is what like 60 years ago?

And the DH was introduced 48 years ago.

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54 minutes ago, treat88 said:

The point being that it is just too physically demanding to have to bat and pitch?  I guess I just dont see batting as quite that taxing.  If that is the case, catchers shouldnt have to hit either right? They use their specific skill 100+ times per game to block a ball coming at them 90+ miles per hour and spend most of their night squatting in the dirt.  That seems like a tougher and just as specialized of a job.  Why pitchers and not catchers?

Im being a bit facetious for effect but by the same logic, why make guys play the field and hit at all?  Just have offensive teams and defensive teams so that guys can only do what they are specialized at.  Shoot have a baserunning team as well so the risk of hitters getting hurt is lessened and we dont have to watch 1Bmen lumber around the basepaths.  Guys should only have to do what they are good at, right?

Pitching is obviously a unique position.  I just dont see it as unique enough they shouldnt have to play the game like every other position.  I obviously get the argument that people pay to see pitchers pitch and taking their ABs does marginally, very marginally IMO, increase their risk of injury.  I get that.  I just disagree that is enough reason to treat them differently.  Throw in that if a pitcher chooses to pitch in and attack a guys hands or outright plunk a guy, well, he should get to come to the plate and get the same treatment.

Every other spot plays both ways I think pitchers, unique or not, should as well.

 

Because catchers can handle that demand and still hit at least close to a league average level.

 If the demands of catching ever get to the point where catchers hit as poorly as pitchers, then a second DH for catchers would make sense.  That is not close to being the case though.

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10 minutes ago, posty said:

Then the sport is dead...

Has the American League ceased to exist? Some of you guys are acting like a DH is some crazy new-fangled idea. It is used in one of the two leagues and at pretty much every lower level. All the NL has shown in the time that the AL has been using the DH is that is zero interest in having pitchers learn to hit. Everyone’s argument that “well pitchers should just hit better”...they clearly aren’t going to. Everyone thought it was so neat when MadBum wanted to be in the HR derby or whatever. He was still a worse hitter than any position player in the entire MLB. Shohei Ohtani is obviously a freak, and we will see how long he both hits and pitches at a high level. He also isn’t a product of American baseball.

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And FWIW, I don’t find the injury angle to this all that compelling. It’sa sport, guys get hurt.  I think more guys have gotten hurt playing video games this year, than by batting. 😄

I just find the product of pitchers hitting to be unentertaining and recognize nothing is going to change that.

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I know the answer...convert to NFL style of play, no one (or very few like Ohtani) plays both ways.

 

9 players that only specialize in hitting play offense, and a pitcher with 8 players that only specialize in fielding play defense.

 

YARN | Who's coming with me? | Jerry Maguire (1996) | Video gifs by quotes  | 0303d379 | 紗

 

 

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1 minute ago, Members_Only_76 said:

I know the answer...convert to NFL style of play, no one (or very few like Ohtani) plays both ways.

 

9 players that only specialize in hitting play offense, and a pitcher with 8 players that only specialize in fielding play defense.

 

YARN | Who's coming with me? | Jerry Maguire (1996) | Video gifs by quotes  | 0303d379 | 紗

 

 

😝

Why is every counter-argument going to some massive extreme? There has been a DH in MLB for almost 50 years. This isn’t putting a man on the moon. If every catcher in the league hit like Jeff Mathis then maybe this would be a point.

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1 minute ago, donslaughtonslaught said:

Why is every counter-argument going to some massive extreme? There has been a DH in MLB for almost 50 years. This isn’t putting a man on the moon. If every catcher in the league hit like Jeff Mathis then maybe this would be a point.

it was a joke, sorry man.

 

I'm actually for the DH being universal.

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13 hours ago, mks said:

deGrom, Mad Bum, Wainright, plenty of other pitchers can handle the bat if they work a little at it. 

Dergom has a 34 career WRC+, Mad Bum 45, Wainwright 36. They are abominably terrible hitters.

There once was a top prospect who I remember for being a gigantic bust. Matt Laporta. Was suppose to be a great hitter and just couldn't cut in the majors. Career WRC+ of 90. Twice was good as the best of your small picked sample size of the best of a poop group of hitters.

Those guys can't hit, the other guys working to get to these levels of suck doesn't change the fact that they suck as hitters. At much lower levels of play, an athlete can improve enough to be a more palatable hitter, not in the bigs.

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21 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

Dergom has a 34 career WRC+, Mad Bum 45, Wainwright 36. They are abominably terrible hitters.

Great point. Not to mention “handle the bat” isn’t the goal of an MLB hitter. If the best case scenario for your number nine hitter is “boy I hope he can maybe get a bunt down or put the ball in play or maybe a one in 150 chance he gets and extra base hit” that isn’t good for the sport in my opinion.

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And what is this idea that DHs are nothing, but fat slob, softball players?  

I mean, Yermin Mercedes is a thick dude, I don't know that he's horribly out of shape.

Franmil is a big dude, but I don't know that he's terribly out of shape either.

Nelson Cruz is 40 years old and I guess would fall into the category of "bad legs" and "can't field".  But, the guy is hardly some fatso that doesn't take care of himself.

Yordan Alvarez is just kind of a younger version of Cruz.

Soler doesn't look out of shape.

Ohtani certainly isn't out of shape.

Khris Davis was never really out of shape.

That's the only DH only guys I can think of, off the top of my head.  Most of the rest of the AL teams just use the DH as a rotation to get guys a day off from the field.

Without the DH, I assume teams would just throw a 1B glove at these guys and live with their likely below average defense there.  Like, if Seattle had just done that with Edgar Martinez, then he's basically Jim Thome.

I just don't see the DH as being some gateway to big, fat, decrepit baseball players.  Certainly not more so than guys like Dan Vogelbach, Willians Astudillo. Albert Pujols or Brusdal Graterol.

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Worth pointing out that pitchers not being able to hit might also be related to the fact that they don’t do it on a consistent basis. If you aren’t getting multiple PA’s everyday, taking BP and hitting in the cage on top of that it’s going to be very difficult to barrel up a 97mph fast ball with movement. 

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6 minutes ago, mudrummer said:

Worth pointing out that pitchers not being able to hit might also be related to the fact that they don’t do it on a consistent basis. If you aren’t getting multiple PA’s everyday, taking BP and hitting in the cage on top of that it’s going to be very difficult to barrel up a 97mph fast ball with movement. 

That's been my argument all along.  Although, at this point, you'd have to probably go back 10 pages to find my posts on it. 😄

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I think another 

31 minutes ago, 89Topps said:

And what is this idea that DHs are nothing, but fat slob, softball players?  

I mean, Yermin Mercedes is a thick dude, I don't know that he's horribly out of shape.

Franmil is a big dude, but I don't know that he's terribly out of shape either.

Nelson Cruz is 40 years old and I guess would fall into the category of "bad legs" and "can't field".  But, the guy is hardly some fatso that doesn't take care of himself.

Yordan Alvarez is just kind of a younger version of Cruz.

Soler doesn't look out of shape.

Ohtani certainly isn't out of shape.

Khris Davis was never really out of shape.

That's the only DH only guys I can think of, off the top of my head.  Most of the rest of the AL teams just use the DH as a rotation to get guys a day off from the field.

Without the DH, I assume teams would just throw a 1B glove at these guys and live with their likely below average defense there.  Like, if Seattle had just done that with Edgar Martinez, then he's basically Jim Thome.

I just don't see the DH as being some gateway to big, fat, decrepit baseball players.  Certainly not more so than guys like Dan Vogelbach, Willians Astudillo. Albert Pujols or Brusdal Graterol.

Great points. I think another over looked benefit of the DH is it gets more ABs for good players/superstars. Instead of Acuna/Yelich/Tatis/Bellinger/name any NL hitter getting scheduled days off or having to go on rehab stints for every issue just stick them at DH for a few games. Watching starting pitchers get a few pathetic ABs a game is not going to grow the sport more than getting the best players playing as much as possible.

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This whole thread is basically the people who are for the universal DH putting up sound arguments and the people against it continuously saying dumb hypotheticals like "mIgHt As WeLl HaVe ThE cOaChEs HiT oFf a TeE aS wElL!! wHy StOp ThErE!?"

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