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2021 Universal DH Debate Thread


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3 minutes ago, FouLLine said:

Let this be the last year to allow pitchers to hit.

Owners want expanded playoffs in 2021 in return for the DH this year.  2022 it is a given here to stay of course.  Still up in the air for 2021 but with luck we won't have to wait one more year.  Owners are using the DH, which the Players Union 100% percent wants right now in 2021, to get those expanded playoffs.  Not a fan of expanded playoffs but I would certainly take that over the NL regressing back to the terrible caveman years of pitchers so-called "hitting" for 2021.  Owners may cave too.  A lot of NL clubs have already invested in line-ups that fit a DH into them.

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Who determines "the way it was meant to be played?" It sounds like you really just mean "the way the game was played when I grew to love it, is the way it should stay forever."  Sorry to be the one to

We really need to get back to this, guys:  (Not sure what is actually happening but HADUKEN!)

You don't actually think that, do you? That seems like a very out of place line of thinking for someone who spends their free time on a fantasy baseball message board. I'm reminded of that scene

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2 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Owners want expanded playoffs in 2021 in return for the DH this year.  2022 it is a given here to stay of course.  Still up in the air for 2021 but with luck we won't have to wait one more year.  Owners are using the DH, which the Players Union 100% percent wants right now in 2021, to get those expanded playoffs.  Not a fan of expanded playoffs but I would certainly take that over the NL regressing back to the terrible caveman years of pitchers so-called "hitting" for 2021.  Owners may cave too.  A lot of NL clubs have already invested in line-ups that fit a DH into them.

 

It's 15 more jobs.  It gives the NL teams more flexibility.  It takes away the discussion of how these teams are built differently so it gives AL teams a competitive advantage in The World Series and throughout the playoffs.  It'll extend more careers of beloved hitters.  We won't have to see pitchers embarrass themselves (which there are a few who can actually hit but 95% of pitchers can't hit at all).

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On 11/21/2020 at 10:07 PM, LarryChip10 said:

So on a related note... most of the pitchers I played against growing up were great athletes and incredible hitters. I'd say %75 of anybody I played college ball with were previous pitchers, regardless of what position they played at that point, and most everybody could flat out rake.  Pitchers hit up until college/ Milb level, so what's the reasoning for such a drastic fall from ability once they get to the big league level? (I mean sure, they're being groomed at all the nuances of pitching most of the time, but they still take BP, bunting practice, and are around the game daily... yet most become pathetic flailing stooges who look like it's their first time ever attempting to take a swing! What gives?)

 

I actually think it's because pitchers just don't get enough ABs to ever get good at hitting.

Hard enough to hit major league pitching.  Even more so if you're only getting maybe 3-4 ABs a week and seldom ever see a pitcher more than once a year.

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On 12/8/2020 at 4:53 PM, FouLLine said:

 

It's 15 more jobs.  It gives the NL teams more flexibility.  It takes away the discussion of how these teams are built differently so it gives AL teams a competitive advantage in The World Series and throughout the playoffs.  It'll extend more careers of beloved hitters.  We won't have to see pitchers embarrass themselves (which there are a few who can actually hit but 95% of pitchers can't hit at all).

Till they get to the World Series how does having it or not having it place a NL club at a disadvantage in the playoffs? How does an AL team gain an advantage in the playoffs discounting the WS?

 

Doubt it extends the careers all that much as the DH is used more of a rest day. Also the "beloved" hitters would be making to much salary per year. The extra player, if there is one added to tge roster, would more likely be a low cost player to get more payroll flexibility.

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9 hours ago, 89Topps said:

 

I actually think it's because pitchers just don't get enough ABs to ever get good at hitting.

Hard enough to hit major league pitching.  Even more so if you're only getting maybe 3-4 ABs a week and seldom ever see a pitcher more than once a year.

 

Exactly...  I would venture to guess that over 95% of the pitchers raked in high school and then only when they got to college did they just pitch and not swing a bat again against live pitching...  It really is a damn shame and the DH should be abolished...

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24 minutes ago, posty said:

 

Exactly...  I would venture to guess that over 95% of the pitchers raked in high school and then only when they got to college did they just pitch and not swing a bat again against live pitching...  It really is a damn shame and the DH should be abolished...

 

You'd need pitchers to them go play the field on their off days.  I just don't think that's feasible.  The closest we're seeing to that is Ohtani and he has the luxury of DHing and still hasn't really managed to consistently pull it off.

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On 12/8/2020 at 2:53 PM, FouLLine said:

 

It's 15 more jobs.  It gives the NL teams more flexibility.  It takes away the discussion of how these teams are built differently so it gives AL teams a competitive advantage in The World Series and throughout the playoffs.  It'll extend more careers of beloved hitters.  We won't have to see pitchers embarrass themselves (which there are a few who can actually hit but 95% of pitchers can't hit at all).

 

Even the pitchers who are thought of as decent hitters, aren't really.

Zack Greinke has a career wRC+ of 60.

Madison Bumgarner's is 45.

Ohtani is really the only exception, and it's even a stretch to call him a pitcher at this point.

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FWIW, on the topic of the DH general, I've done a 180 on my opinion, then kind of done another 90 degree turn on it.

I grew up thinking the DH was silly and pitchers should hit.  As I got more into the statistics of the game, and realized how truly horrific pitchers are at hitting, I came to appreciate the DH and personally hope it is adopted in the NL.

However, having engaged in this argument enough, I realize there are still a lot of fans who want to watch pitchers hit. I don't get it, but who am I to tell someone what to enjoy about baseball? So, I say just leave it as is. Those who want to watch pitchers hit have 15 teams they can watch. Those who want to watch DHs, guess what? 15 teams with that too.

Win/win.

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1 hour ago, 89Topps said:

I realize there are still a lot of fans who want to watch pitchers hit. I don't get it, but who am I to tell someone what to enjoy about baseball? So, I say just leave it as is. Those who want to watch pitchers hit have 15 teams they can watch. Those who want to watch DHs, guess what? 15 teams with that too.

Win/win.

 

Perfect...  Just leave the DH in the AL and pitchers in the NL...

It would be even better if one team was added (or contracted) to (from) both leagues to get an even amount and then MLB can get rid of interleague play...  Leave it for the All-Star Game and the World Series...

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5 minutes ago, posty said:

 

Perfect...  Just leave the DH in the AL and pitchers in the NL...

It would be even better if one team was added (or contracted) to (from) both leagues to get an even amount and then MLB can get rid of interleague play...  Leave it for the All-Star Game and the World Series...

 

So glad you don't get to decide and the DH is coming to the NL permanently next year, if not this year still. 

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2 hours ago, 89Topps said:

 

However, having engaged in this argument enough, I realize there are still a lot of fans who want to watch pitchers hit. I don't get it, but who am I to tell someone what to enjoy about baseball? So, I say just leave it as is. Those who want to watch pitchers hit have 15 teams they can watch. Those who want to watch DHs, guess what? 15 teams with that too.

Win/win.

 

The argument " some people feel passionate about something, so who am I to advocate change?" can be used for anything, not just baseball.  People have the right to their opinions, even bad ones, but that alone shouldn't end the discussion.  For a multitude of reasons DH makes more sense and common sense will eventually prevail. 

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1 hour ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

 

So glad you don't get to decide and the DH is coming to the NL permanently next year, if not this year still. 

 

Probably...  Then the NL will be just as bad as the AL...

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2 hours ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

The argument " some people feel passionate about something, so who am I to advocate change?" can be used for anything, not just baseball.  People have the right to their opinions, even bad ones, but that alone shouldn't end the discussion.  For a multitude of reasons DH makes more sense and common sense will eventually prevail. 

This.

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7 hours ago, 89Topps said:

FWIW, on the topic of the DH general, I've done a 180 on my opinion, then kind of done another 90 degree turn on it.

I grew up thinking the DH was silly and pitchers should hit.  As I got more into the statistics of the game, and realized how truly horrific pitchers are at hitting, I came to appreciate the DH and personally hope it is adopted in the NL.

However, having engaged in this argument enough, I realize there are still a lot of fans who want to watch pitchers hit. I don't get it, but who am I to tell someone what to enjoy about baseball? So, I say just leave it as is. Those who want to watch pitchers hit have 15 teams they can watch. Those who want to watch DHs, guess what? 15 teams with that too.

Win/win.

 

There is something to be appreciated about pitchers who while over matched are just damn good competitors and end up willing a productive at bat just because of how dang competitive they are.

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8 hours ago, 89Topps said:

However, having engaged in this argument enough, I realize there are still a lot of fans who want to watch pitchers hit. I don't get it, but who am I to tell someone what to enjoy about baseball? So, I say just leave it as is. Those who want to watch pitchers hit have 15 teams they can watch. Those who want to watch DHs, guess what? 15 teams with that too.

Win/win.

But many MANY NL fans WANT the DH and been hoping for it for years.  The NL is the only league professionally in the world that still clings to this outdated idea that pitchers should hit.  I'm surprised they haven't forced position players to pitch too since apparently according to some arguments here a ball player should have to be able to "do it all."  

And it is NOT win-win to take away the DH form an AL club during inter-league and playoff games in NL parks.  What to speak putting pitchers in that haven't swung a bat all season.  This crap has had the AL at a disadvantage for years.  Time for a LEVEL playing field and everyone around the world ALL play baseball and not have one eccentric group (NL) off doing their weird version of archaic baseball.  (Do they still make them wear "real" steel spikes in that league too?  "Real" heavy wool uniforms?).

No other sport had an overall league (MLB here) where it's two parts play two separate games.  Totally completely ridiculous.

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10 hours ago, posty said:

 

Exactly...  I would venture to guess that over 95% of the pitchers raked in high school and then only when they got to college did they just pitch and not swing a bat again against live pitching...  It really is a damn shame and the DH should be abolished...

A lot of hitters can "rake" in high school when guys are throwing 75-80 but they cant catch up to 90+ and filthy offspeed you start to see Div I and into the professional ranks and the game continues to funnel them out, much the same way guys with live arms who throw 80+ can be pitchers in high school and be successful and they are thought to be throwing "gas", but they also dont make that next step to 90+ with command, secondary pitches etc and they dont pitch beyond HS.  I was a HS coach for 11 years and I would say most years I used the DH, it was not always for the pitcher, matter of fact most years it was rarely for the pitcher.  

The DH is pretty much used throughout the game minors, college, HS, travel ball with the exception of the NL.  If you think its about some "fat player who cant play defense" then change the rule, make it like the fastpitch softball version of the DH, which is called DP/Flex, its slightly different in that the DP (DH) can play the field, the Flex cannot hit.  So of your 10 players, 9 are on the field but each inning you can in theory juggle things around.  

 

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10 hours ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

The argument " some people feel passionate about something, so who am I to advocate change?" can be used for anything, not just baseball.  People have the right to their opinions, even bad ones, but that alone shouldn't end the discussion.  For a multitude of reasons DH makes more sense and common sense will eventually prevail. 

 

I understand that argument too.  Would adding the DH to the NL increase the popularity of the sport enough to offset the number of current fans it alienates? Perhaps.

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5 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

But many MANY NL fans WANT the DH and been hoping for it for years.  The NL is the only league professionally in the world that still clings to this outdated idea that pitchers should hit.  I'm surprised they haven't forced position players to pitch too since apparently according to some arguments here a ball player should have to be able to "do it all."  

And it is NOT win-win to take away the DH form an AL club during inter-league and playoff games in NL parks.  What to speak putting pitchers in that haven't swung a bat all season.  This crap has had the AL at a disadvantage for years.  Time for a LEVEL playing field and everyone around the world ALL play baseball and not have one eccentric group (NL) off doing their weird version of archaic baseball.  (Do they still make them wear "real" steel spikes in that league too?  "Real" heavy wool uniforms?).

No other sport had an overall league (MLB here) where it's two parts play two separate games.  Totally completely ridiculous.

 

Are AL teams at a disadvantage when their pitchers have to hit?  Theoretically, I get what you're saying, but statistically, have AL pitchers fared much worse than NL?

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We dont ask QBS to tackle.

We dont ask LBS to pass.

Asking pitchers to hit, is as dumb as asking hitters to pitch.

Finally, some good sense.

If pitchers can hit, let them pinch hit.

5 maybe

The DH, actually let's the everyday stars play more, by getting a day off to DH.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Hanghow said:

Just checking in; anybody change their opinion, yet?

Mine has. I now think we should remove the DH all together, but when a pitcher is at bat, a position player must pitch to him. 

Edited by 2ndCitySox
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10 hours ago, 89Topps said:

 

I understand that argument too.  Would adding the DH to the NL increase the popularity of the sport enough to offset the number of current fans it alienates? Perhaps.

 

Nope...

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Within 50-100 years, every hitter will be a DH and all of the defensive players will be specialists. Baseball will be a better and more enjoyable game for it. Universal DH is a tiny step in the right direction. I'm sure no one will disagree. 😜

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