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2021 Universal DH Debate Thread


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I don't think the DH is the bargaining chip the owners think it is. They're asking the players to get paid for fewer games, but also make the owners more money with expanded playoffs. But hey, we're giving you a DH position instead of an extra reliever or utility infielder position!

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Who determines "the way it was meant to be played?" It sounds like you really just mean "the way the game was played when I grew to love it, is the way it should stay forever."  Sorry to be the one to

We really need to get back to this, guys:  (Not sure what is actually happening but HADUKEN!)

You don't actually think that, do you? That seems like a very out of place line of thinking for someone who spends their free time on a fantasy baseball message board. I'm reminded of that scene

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6 hours ago, 89Topps said:

I don't think the DH is the bargaining chip the owners think it is. They're asking the players to get paid for fewer games, but also make the owners more money with expanded playoffs. But hey, we're giving you a DH position instead of an extra reliever or utility infielder position!

I read that per the CBA the players are entitled to full pay no matter when happens.  This seems a little outlandish though so I don't know?

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7 minutes ago, damana said:

I read that per the CBA the players are entitled to full pay no matter when happens.  This seems a little outlandish though so I don't know?

Well, that wasn't the case the last year. And if the owners are stuck paying full salaries no matter what, no chance they'd be asking for fewer games.

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Tim Brown of Yahoo Sports reports that Major League Baseball's proposal to the MLBPA on Friday included a 154-game schedule with full pay, delaying the start of the season by a month and extending the end of the season by a week.

More specifically, spring training would start on March 22nd and the regular season on April 28, with the postseason carrying over into early November, per ESPN's Buster Olney. Jared Diamond of The Wall Street Journal says it also includes an expanded 14-team postseason and the universal designated hitter. The MLBPA is "considering" the proposal, per Brown. The players are already entitled to full pay in 2021 through the CBA, so giving in to the expanded postseason in exchange for the universal DH might not feel worth it to them unless they're also getting a bigger share of the postseason pot. At least we're at a starting point, though, and perhaps have a better idea when the season might begin.

Jan 31, 2021, 11:02 AM ET
 
This was the blurb I was referring to. 
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22 hours ago, 89Topps said:

I don't think the DH is the bargaining chip the owners think it is. They're asking the players to get paid for fewer games, but also make the owners more money with expanded playoffs. But hey, we're giving you a DH position instead of an extra reliever or utility infielder position!

 

The owners become owners because they are some of the most ruthless and best businessmen in the country, and probably the world.  Traditionally you don't get rich in business conceding things to the opposition for free. That's all this is, as small as it may seem.

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58 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

The owners become owners because they are some of the most ruthless and best businessmen in the country, and probably the world.  Traditionally you don't get rich in business conceding things to the opposition for free. That's all this is, as small as it may seem.

 

Very true.  MLB pretty much acknowledges as much in the statement they released:

 

Quote

"We also proposed two changes from the 2020 season that were overwhelmingly popular with our fans – for this season only, featuring a modified expanded Postseason (seven teams per League) and the universal designated hitter rule."



MLB knows the universal DH is a good idea in regards to fan appeal, but still won't enact it without getting some sort of concession out of it from MLBPA.

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56 minutes ago, OaksterDan said:


MLB knows the universal DH is a good idea in regards to fan appeal, but still won't enact it without getting some sort of concession out of it from MLBPA.

 

And this is why baseball continues to fall behind other sports in popularity. Owners and Manfred have no one to blame but themselves for much of it.

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17 minutes ago, colorado2013 said:

 

And this is why baseball continues to fall behind other sports in popularity. Owners and Manfred have no one to blame but themselves for much of it.

Are we so sure about that? NFL is number 1 isn’t MLB #2

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15 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

Are we so sure about that? NFL is number 1 isn’t MLB #2

 

It could be. 

It wasn't too long ago when those were reversed. And momentum does not seem to be MLB's friend. When I watch ESPN, or listen to sports podcasts, it's crickets for baseball but plenty of NFL, NBA, college sports. Where will it be tomorrow? 

 

Edited by colorado2013
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I mean, I'd rather have them abolish the DH, but it's good for adding a couple years to a players career. If they're going to keep the DH even at all, it just has to be in both. It's so unfair to the NL club when the World Series comes around. Does anybody realize this??? The AL basically gets an extra starter. Think about all those years the Red Sox had Ortiz. When they went to the World Series, they had a hall of famer in that DH spot, a top of the line starter. While the NL team was rolling out it's best bench player. How is that fair?

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5 hours ago, BIGMIKE1026 said:

I mean, I'd rather have them abolish the DH, but it's good for adding a couple years to a players career. If they're going to keep the DH even at all, it just has to be in both. It's so unfair to the NL club when the World Series comes around. Does anybody realize this??? The AL basically gets an extra starter. Think about all those years the Red Sox had Ortiz. When they went to the World Series, they had a hall of famer in that DH spot, a top of the line starter. While the NL team was rolling out it's best bench player. How is that fair?

It’s not. Asterisk on all Red Sox championships.

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12 hours ago, BIGMIKE1026 said:

I mean, I'd rather have them abolish the DH, but it's good for adding a couple years to a players career. If they're going to keep the DH even at all, it just has to be in both. It's so unfair to the NL club when the World Series comes around. Does anybody realize this??? The AL basically gets an extra starter. Think about all those years the Red Sox had Ortiz. When they went to the World Series, they had a hall of famer in that DH spot, a top of the line starter. While the NL team was rolling out it's best bench player. How is that fair?

It is also NOT fair to the AL having to have their pitchers who don't even own bats have to bat in inter-league games as well as the playoffs.

Baseball is the ONLY professional sport to have one league and one league period in it's sport play by "special snowflake" rules.  All minor league teams including the NL minor league clubs, Japan, Korea etc and MLB MINUS the NL use the DH.  Grow up an put some big boy pants on, NL and get out of the 1800's.   One rule for all.  DH forevah!

Edited by The Big Bat Theory
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I see no negatives in having the DH for both leagues.  I myself am all for tradition but I have never liked pitchers hitting from the time I started watching baseball.  Pitchers pitch and hitters hit.  Why not make a rule where one of your position players has to pitch an inning each game?  Really what is the downside?  "Damn my NL SP gets to actually pitch a full game and not get pinch hit for in the 6th inning".  

Edited by knifeparty
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17 hours ago, BIGMIKE1026 said:

I mean, I'd rather have them abolish the DH, but it's good for adding a couple years to a players career.

I think if you actually looked at every team's DH you'd see a lot of really young elite bats (Yordan, Franmil, Eloy)  who would play elsewhere if it weren't for DH.  The only really old dudes playing Dh regularly (per RR) are Cruz (one of the best hitters in the game) and Miggy (only really there because of contract, but probably is their regular 1b over Renato Nunez)

The DH usually helps some decent but not great hitter get to play the OF more than keeping some fat guy's career alive like @postythinks.   But I know actually looking at the situation objectively is tough for some.

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2 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

I think if you actually looked at every team's DH you'd see a lot of really young elite bats (Yordan, Franmil, Eloy)  who would play elsewhere if it weren't for DH.  The only really old dudes playing Dh regularly (per RR) are Cruz (one of the best hitters in the game) and Miggy (only really there because of contract, but probably is their regular 1b over Renato Nunez)

The DH usually helps some decent but not great hitter get to play the OF more than keeping some fat guy's career alive like @postythinks.   But I know actually looking at the situation objectively is tough for some.

I have always been from the mold that you play the field, you bat and vice versa...  Growing up and playing baseball, that is what we did in the leagues I played...  Never had a DH and thank God for that...  If you struggled with the bat,  you worked on it, even if you were a pitcher as well...

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5 minutes ago, posty said:

I have always been from the mold that you play the field, you bat and vice versa...  Growing up and playing baseball, that is what we did in the leagues I played...  Never had a DH and thank God for that...  If you struggled with the bat,  you worked on it, even if you were a pitcher as well...

The idea that pitchers could be passably good hitters if they only tried harder is so flawed. They could spend hours in the cage every day, but the fact remains, they're only going to get 3 ABs a week. It's just not feasible to become good at hitting seeing that few live bullets and that is why pitchers have been horrible hitters for over 100 years.

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13 minutes ago, posty said:

I have always been from the mold that you play the field, you bat and vice versa...  Growing up and playing baseball, that is what we did in the leagues I played...  Never had a DH and thank God for that...  If you struggled with the bat,  you worked on it, even if you were a pitcher as well...

Nothing here is an actual reason or argument for why there shouldn't be a DH in MLB.

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17 minutes ago, posty said:

I have always been from the mold that you play the field, you bat and vice versa...  Growing up and playing baseball, that is what we did in the leagues I played...  Never had a DH and thank God for that...  If you struggled with the bat,  you worked on it, even if you were a pitcher as well...

Seems fine for little league where the competition is so low that working in the cage for a couple hours extra each week could make a tangible difference. In the majors? If we're dealing with reality, that's a little laughable to me.

i think that sort of advice is better for fantasy baseball.  If someone throws their hands up in there thinking it's all luck, maybe work on it and get better. Easier than a pitcher becoming an even average big league hitter. Much.

Edited by brockpapersizer
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10 minutes ago, 89Topps said:

The idea that pitchers could be passably good hitters if they only tried harder is so flawed. 

It's 100% unfeasible that they become even average or slightly below average hitters, let alone actually good.

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1 minute ago, OaksterDan said:

Nothing here is an actual reason or argument for why there shouldn't be a DH in MLB.

Everybody wants more offense and HR's.   Adding the DH does that.

Everybody complains games are too long.  Too many pitching changes.  SP's can't go through the lineup three times anymore.   There was a time when SP's had an easy inning because the pitcher was an easy out.

Baseball was fine when scoring runs in a low scoring game was the norm.    Teams routinely used stolen bases and sacrifice bunts as integral to the game.   Rules changes can be good or bad.    Depends on what you view as good.  

 

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18 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

Seems fine for little league where the competition is so low that working in the cage for a couple hours extra each week could make a tangible difference. In the majors? If we're dealing with reality, that's a little laughable to me.

i think that sort of advice is better for fantasy baseball.  If someone throws their hands up in there thinking it's all luck, maybe work on it and get better. Easier than a pitcher becoming an even average big league hitter. Much.

Fantasy sports is all luck...

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11 minutes ago, Brooklyn Dude said:

Everybody wants more offense and HR's.   Adding the DH does that.

Everybody complains games are too long.  Too many pitching changes.  SP's can't go through the lineup three times anymore.   There was a time when SP's had an easy inning because the pitcher was an easy out.

Baseball was fine when scoring runs in a low scoring game was the norm.    Teams routinely used stolen bases and sacrifice bunts as integral to the game.   Rules changes can be good or bad.    Depends on what you view as good.  

 

Don't know if you are throwing out sarcasm, but as I have said before, I would MUCH rather watch a well-pitched 2-1, 3-1, 2-0, etc game than a 17-15 game any day...

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