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2021 Universal DH Debate Thread


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Who determines "the way it was meant to be played?" It sounds like you really just mean "the way the game was played when I grew to love it, is the way it should stay forever."  Sorry to be the one to

We really need to get back to this, guys:  (Not sure what is actually happening but HADUKEN!)

You don't actually think that, do you? That seems like a very out of place line of thinking for someone who spends their free time on a fantasy baseball message board. I'm reminded of that scene

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8 minutes ago, posty said:

Fantasy sports is all luck...

You don't actually think that, do you? That seems like a very out of place line of thinking for someone who spends their free time on a fantasy baseball message board.

I'm reminded of that scene in Rounders where Matt Damon has to explain to his girlfriend that poker is a skill game.

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6 minutes ago, 89Topps said:

You don't actually think that, do you? That seems like a very out of place line of thinking for someone who spends their free time on a fantasy baseball message board.

I'm reminded of that scene in Rounders where Matt Damon has to explain to his girlfriend that poker is a skill game.

So where is the "skill" in fantasy sports today?  Doing research is not a "skill"...

Also, poker is all luck as well...  I guess memorizing the percentages and reading the other players is a skill, so that would make poker about 95% luck then...

This thread is not for luck/skill, that thread is at:  

This thread is for the atrocity of the DH in the NL...

 

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8 minutes ago, posty said:

So where is the "skill" in fantasy sports today?  Doing research is not a "skill"...

Also, poker is all luck as well...  I guess memorizing the percentages and reading the other players is a skill, so that would make poker about 95% luck then...

Wow.  I just don't have the time or energy today to get into how ridiculous this take is.

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34 minutes ago, posty said:

Don't know if you are throwing out sarcasm, but as I have said before, I would MUCH rather watch a well-pitched 2-1, 3-1, 2-0, etc game than a 17-15 game any day...

I wasn't being sarcastic.  But I think fans want more offense so the owners give it to them.

I don't think the owners mind if it's done with smaller ballparks, supplements or juiced baseballs.  They lowered the mounds when pitching became to dominant back in the sixties.

I have accepted that the DH is inevitable.  Baseball is a game.   The rules for any game can always be changed.  It is up to each person to decide if the game is better for those changes.

 

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42 minutes ago, posty said:

Don't know if you are throwing out sarcasm, but as I have said before, I would MUCH rather watch a well-pitched 2-1, 3-1, 2-0, etc game than a 17-15 game any day...

Last year the average o/u for a game was 8.5. With the ball being less and no DH in the NL, it might come down to 8 is what some gamblers I know are saying.

I think there is a big discrepancy in what you think these rules will do/are and reality.

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37 minutes ago, 89Topps said:

Wow.  I just don't have the time or energy today to get into how ridiculous this take is.

Good, I wasn't really wanting to read your replies anyway because nothing you say and nothing I say will change each other's minds...  So the "agree to disagree" concept is the best solution...

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25 minutes ago, Brooklyn Dude said:

It is up to each person to decide if the game is better for those changes.

Agreed 100%...  Some people will like some/all of the changes and some people won't like some/all...

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20 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

Last year the average o/u for a game was 8.5. With the ball being less and no DH in the NL, it might come down to 8 is what some gamblers I know are saying.

I think there is a big discrepancy in what you think these rules will do/are and reality.

See I don't gamble, so I don't care about spread and O/U...

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Fantasy baseball above all other fantasy sports does require the most skill/dedication.  If you want to say fantasy football has some luck involved then sure I can see the argument but when it comes to baseball the best owners always seem to be at the top of their leagues.  Unless your doing weekly leagues where your decisions are limited baseball requires you to manage your team every single day.  Whether it be add/drops or just waiting to see starting lineups for the day.  Casual owners never last in competitive baseball leagues.  

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11 hours ago, Brooklyn Dude said:

Everybody wants more offense and HR's.   

 

I dont.

I want pitchers going 9 innings, guys stealing 70

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11 hours ago, posty said:

Fantasy sports is all luck...

That's got to be the hot take of the year.

Then why do roughly 80 to 90% of the winners, are the same owners year to year?

 

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22 hours ago, brockpapersizer said:

The DH usually helps some decent but not great hitter get to play the OF more than keeping some fat guy's career alive like @postythinks.   But I know actually looking at the situation objectively is tough for some.

OK we get you want an universal DH others don’t ....  you must know no way no chance you or anybody else is going to change the opinions of others who dislike the DH. When a pitcher goes up to bat and tries to hit the ball that is baseball in my eyes. I rather watch a National league game on TV over any American League game and this is coming from a New York Yankees fan.  

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On 2/14/2021 at 1:55 PM, BIGMIKE1026 said:

I mean, I'd rather have them abolish the DH, but it's good for adding a couple years to a players career. If they're going to keep the DH even at all, it just has to be in both. It's so unfair to the NL club when the World Series comes around. Does anybody realize this??? The AL basically gets an extra starter. Think about all those years the Red Sox had Ortiz. When they went to the World Series, they had a hall of famer in that DH spot, a top of the line starter. While the NL team was rolling out it's best bench player. How is that fair?

The NL should have gave the AL the middle finger the first year they put this fake rule into the game. Told them we will play our own world series without you guys. 

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34 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

OK we get you want an universal DH others don’t ....  you must know no way no chance you or anybody else is going to change the opinions of others who dislike the DH. 

It is after all a debate thread. Not trying to change opinions, so much as just pointing out terribly stupid arguments  such as implying pitchers could just work on their hitting, scores are going to be considerably different, or that the DH is for fat old people who can't play the field.  "This is the way it's always been done"... also a terrible non argument, I won't even point out the obvious examples in sports and actual history where saying that is just laughable.

 

If you prefer to watch some of the worst hitters in baseball have more at bats, I can't help there. That's your personal preference. Not attempting to change taste.

 

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25 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

It is after all a debate thread. Not trying to change opinions, so much as just pointing out terribly stupid arguments  such as implying pitchers could just work on their hitting, scores are going to be considerably different, or that the DH is for fat old people who can't play the field.  "This is the way it's always been done"... also a terrible non argument, I won't even point out the obvious examples in sports and actual history where saying that is just laughable.

 

If you prefer to watch some of the worst hitters in baseball have more at bats, I can't help there. That's your personal preference. Not attempting to change taste.

 

So basically you are saying that fans of NL type baseball are idiots because we like the game the way that is was supposed to be?

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10 minutes ago, posty said:

So basically you are saying that fans of NL type baseball are idiots because we like the game the way that is was supposed to be?

Saying "the way it was supposed to be" is subjective. You keep repeating it like it's a point. I can assure you it's not.  Apply that standard to many things and it looks really bad whether it be the 3 point line or slavery and millions of things in between.

I wouldn't expect you to understand why it's a terrible point based on not understanding how o/u totals relate to scoring in baseball by simply sticking your head into the ground and saying "I don't gamble". 

If you prefer watching terrible hitters hit because they play defense have fun. I got nothing to counter that.

 

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23 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

It is after all a debate thread. Not trying to change opinions, so much as just pointing out terribly stupid arguments  such as implying pitchers could just work on their hitting, scores are going to be considerably different, or that the DH is for fat old people who can't play the field. 

Correct, in theory it is called the 2021 universal DH debate thread but damn I let’s say one person likes Trump & peanut butter and the other likes Biden & jelly. We ain’t going to agree. 
 

We both know pitchers ain’t going to work one hitting & only old fat guys play DH, but come on a guy who plays DH has defensive relapses. Didn’t you mention   In another post a bunch of guys who are defensive liabilities? 
 

34 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

scores are going to be considerably

I am going to assume going back let’s say 5 years (not counting 2020) the scores been different between the two leagues. A lot different.  You say different? Can you show some facts to back that up? 
 

 

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11 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

Saying "the way it was supposed to be" is subjective. You keep repeating it like it's a point. I can assure you it's not.  Apply that standard to many things and it looks really bad whether it be the 3 point line or slavery and millions of things in between.

I wouldn't expect you to understand why it's a terrible point based on not understanding how o/u totals relate to scoring in baseball by simply sticking your head into the ground and saying "I don't gamble". 

If you prefer watching terrible hitters hit because they play defense have fun. I got nothing to counter that.

 

Thanks for call all NL fans idiots then...

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4 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

Correct, in theory it is called the 2021 universal DH debate thread but damn I let’s say one person likes Trump & peanut butter and the other likes Biden & jelly. We ain’t going to agree. 
 

We both know pitchers ain’t going to work one hitting & only old fat guys play DH, but come on a guy who plays DH has defensive relapses. Didn’t you mention   In another post a bunch of guys who are defensive liabilities? 
 

I am going to assume going back let’s say 5 years (not counting 2020) the scores been different between the two leagues. A lot different.  You say different? Can you show some facts to back that up? 
 

 

11,167 10,437 21,604 1997
11,360 11,939 23,299 1998
11,725 12,966 24,691 1999
11,995 12,976 24,971 2000
11,013 12,186 23,199 2001
10,892 11,516 22,408 2002
11,033 11,945 22,978 2003
11,358 12,018 23,376 2004
10,790 11,535 22,325 2005
11,262 12,337 23,599 2006
11,114 12,208 23,322 2007
10,844 11,741 22,585 2008
10,938 11,481 22,419 2009
10,097 11,211 21,308 2010
10,117 10,691 20,808 2011
10,088 10,929 21,017 2012
10,525 9,730 20,255 2013
10,161 9,600 19,761 2014
10,651 9,996 20,647 2015
10,970 10,774 21,744 2016
11,443 11,139 22,582 2017

 

Apologies for only going to 2017. Not cutting it off at a convenient time, the website went to 2017

 

Look at the first two columns, one is AL one is NL. Is there a substantial difference year to year?  Can you tell me without looking it up whether the first or second column is AL or NL?  The ball has more to do with scoring than the DH in all honesty.

And to make it clear I also prefer a pitcher's duel to a game with over 20 runs.  I still want to see good hitters at the plate rather than scubs.

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On 1/31/2021 at 10:29 AM, JE7HorseGod said:

I view not having the DH in the NL as I do daylight savings time.  It's a tradition for tradition's sake from a bygone era that there is no evidence improves quality.  Most of us just endure a pitcher AB every three innings to satisfy purists.

The only difference is that people have nostalgia for pitcher's hitting.

I love that this comment gets a ton of praise, but no one can take this argument to it's next logical point.

If not having to endure an at-bat from a pitcher is a good thing, then why do we endure at-bats from a backup catcher with a .595 OPS. Or a defensive wizard with no bat. Watching people do things they aren't good at is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the reason why I watch sports. I want to see people who are the best of the best of the best doing things that blow my mind. I also never want to watch Adam Dunn stumble around in the outfield. Nor would I want to watch a position player pitch for 6 innings and give up 25 runs. The point is to showcase the most talented athletes in the world doing what they do best. I'd never bet on it happening, but I hope the league moves in the direction of more specialization. Much more. 

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9 minutes ago, ajs723 said:

I love that this comment gets a ton of praise, but no one can take this argument to it's next logical point.

If not having to endure an at-bat from a pitcher is a good thing, then why do we endure at-bats from a backup catcher with a .595 OPS. Or a defensive wizard with no bat. Watching people do things they aren't good at is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the reason why I watch sports. I want to see people who are the best of the best of the best doing things that blow my mind. I also never want to watch Adam Dunn stumble around in the outfield. Nor would I want to watch a position player pitch for 6 innings and give up 25 runs. The point is to showcase the most talented athletes in the world doing what they do best. I'd never bet on it happening, but I hope the league moves in the direction of more specialization. Much more. 

Agreed. I don't like the DH because I want to see more bombs in a game, I just want to see better at bats.  I rather see Gerrit Cole vs Nelson Cruz than pitching to Jose Berrios.  If Cole strikles out Cruz, that's awesome. It was amazing.  If he dongs off Cole, that was also awesome to watch. Striking out or inducing weak contact to Berrios is nothing to me.  If Berrios hits a dong, I do think that's cool, but it's not worth enduring all the miserable at bats to see that happen every blue moon.  It's not just the result. The actual tension in the AB is one of my favorite things about baseball and it's not there when you see terrible hitters.

I like watching competitive ABs. I want to see the best pitcher vs hitter as much as possible.

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2 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

Agreed. I don't like the DH because I want to see more bombs in a game, I just want to see better at bats.  I rather see Gerrit Cole vs Nelson Cruz than pitching to Jose Berrios.  If Cole strikles out Cruz, that's awesome. It was amazing.  If he dongs off Cole, that was also awesome to watch. Striking out or inducing weak contact to Berrios is nothing to me.  If Berrios hits a dong, I do think that's cool, but it's not worth enduring all the miserable at bats to see that happen every blue moon.  It's not just the result. The actual tension in the AB is one of my favorite things about baseball and it's not there when you see terrible hitters.

I like watching competitive ABs. I want to see the best pitcher vs hitter as much as possible.

If you want a really hot take... eliminate batting orders! Let Mike Trout lead off every inning. If he hits a home run, let him bat again in that same inning! Baseball would become a national game with global superstars, instead of a regional game with local superstars. No one in New York is staying up late to watch an Angels game so they see Trout go 1-3 with a double and a walk. People would absolutely watch Trout go 5-13 with 2 homers and a double. We don't limit Mahomes to 6 passes a game, or LeBron to 8 shot attempts. Limiting the role played by superstars is the best way to make your game unpopular. 

But I digress. One step at a time. Make the DH universal, permanently. 

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