2021 Universal DH Debate Thread

[brockpapersizer 11,928]

1 minute ago, ajs723 said:

If you want a really hot take... eliminate batting orders! Let Mike Trout lead off every inning. If he hits a home run, let him bat again in that same inning! Baseball would become a national game with global superstars, instead of a regional game with local superstars. No one in New York is staying up late to watch an Angels game so they see Trout go 1-3 with a double and a walk. People would absolutely watch Trout go 5-13 with 2 homers and a double. We don't limit Mahomes to 6 passes a game, or LeBron to 8 shot attempts. Limiting the role played by superstars is the best way to make your game unpopular. 

But I digress. One step at a time. Make the DH universal, permanently. 

That's a step to far for me personally.  I just dont want to see pitchers bat unless they all became good hitters.

[The Big Bat Theory 7,541]

1 hour ago, FantasyGeek2018 said:

The NL should have gave the AL the middle finger the first year they put this fake rule into the game. Told them we will play our own world series without you guys. 

Other way around.  Carpenter of the Phillies wanted the DH and had he voted that day instead of literally gone fishing -- he thought the votes were there for the DH without him, lazy sod -- we would have had the same great DH rule for all of baseball all these years and no one would be wanting to go back to the "good old days" because they wouldn't remember the "good old days" and how truly boring it was to have pitchers hit.

Since the NL is the ONLY league in all of professional baseball, college baseball, world baseball etc etc doing this stupid "pitchers can hit for some unknown reason" silly rule they are the league that should be banned from playing in the World Series until they join the rest of humanity.

[posty 1,373]

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Edited February 16 by posty

[FantasyGeek2018 461]

33 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Other way around.  Carpenter of the Phillies wanted the DH and had he voted that day instead of literally gone fishing -- he thought the votes were there for the DH without him, lazy sod -- we would have had the same great DH rule for all of baseball all these years and no one would be wanting to go back to the "good old days" because they wouldn't remember the "good old days" and how truly boring it was to have pitchers hit.

Since the NL is the ONLY league in all of professional baseball, college baseball, world baseball etc etc doing this stupid "pitchers can hit for some unknown reason" silly rule they are the league that should be banned from playing in the World Series until they join the rest of humanity.

I love the fishing excuse. They have had all the years since that year to put it in and still has not happened. Good old days > millinials always wanting change. Like one poster said if the dh fans want quality hitting and not pitchers hitting let trout lead off every inning.  Why not just let only your top four batters hit if we want to see the best.  Sounds dumb. Same as dh did when they first added it. Still does. 

Edited February 16 by FantasyGeek2018

[JE7HorseGod 2,695]

1 hour ago, ajs723 said:

I love that this comment gets a ton of praise, but no one can take this argument to it's next logical point.

If not having to endure an at-bat from a pitcher is a good thing, then why do we endure at-bats from a backup catcher with a .595 OPS. Or a defensive wizard with no bat. Watching people do things they aren't good at is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the reason why I watch sports. I want to see people who are the best of the best of the best doing things that blow my mind. I also never want to watch Adam Dunn stumble around in the outfield. Nor would I want to watch a position player pitch for 6 innings and give up 25 runs. The point is to showcase the most talented athletes in the world doing what they do best. I'd never bet on it happening, but I hope the league moves in the direction of more specialization. Much more. 

I think as you've seen in your dialogue with Brock that not everyone who sympathizes with the Universal DH idea sympathizes with...well whatever you imagine the "next logical step" to be.

I'm ok with an "all hitter" lineup, for instance (which I think is what you are suggesting?) but I don't think that's popular enough.  Not yet anyway.

[Low and Away 1,571]

On 2/15/2021 at 9:54 AM, Brooklyn Dude said:

Everybody wants more offense and HR's.   Adding the DH does that.

Everybody complains games are too long.  Too many pitching changes.  SP's can't go through the lineup three times anymore.   There was a time when SP's had an easy inning because the pitcher was an easy out.

Baseball was fine when scoring runs in a low scoring game was the norm.    Teams routinely used stolen bases and sacrifice bunts as integral to the game.   Rules changes can be good or bad.    Depends on what you view as good.  

 

Analytics changed the game more than rule changes in my opinion. The idea that you have a better chance of scoring a run with a runner on first base and no outs compared with having him sacrificed to second still just blows what mind I have left.

It isn't so much going through the lineup 3 times as it comes down to pitch count. Analytics again showed that most pitchers get much worse around a 100 pitches. Funky ways of running bullpens will make things worse.

 

But I agree with you watching a 3-2 game was more enjoyable than the 10-9 games are happening. Think fantasy plays a role in that.

[posty 1,373]

20 minutes ago, Low and Away said:

But I agree with you watching a 3-2 game was more enjoyable than the 10-9 games are happening. Think fantasy plays a role in that.

It does, unfortunately...  Same thing with football, basketball, hockey, etc...  A majority of people today just want offense and a lot of them think that more offense makes the game much more exciting...  It might and it might not...  For those that like a 15-13 game, there are a lot they love a 2-1, 1-0 game with great pitching and fielding, not just a T-ball game...

[brockpapersizer 11,928]

13 minutes ago, posty said:

It does, unfortunately...  Same thing with football, basketball, hockey, etc...  A majority of people today just want offense and a lot of them think that more offense makes the game much more exciting...  It might and it might not...  For those that like a 15-13 game, there are a lot they love a 2-1, 1-0 game with great pitching and fielding, not just a T-ball game...

The problem with all your arguments is they aren't based in what I like to call reality.  The DH won't significantly increase scoring. I posted numbers to show that on the previous page. The NL has outscored the AL many times in the last 15 years. But you buried your head in the sand like when I brought up o/u. 

In terms of scoring. The ball >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NL DH.  But burry away.

 

Here's more. Keep burying though.

 

 

 

The NL literally had less runs per game last season with a DH

 

Edited February 16 by brockpapersizer

[JE7HorseGod 2,695]

I find that, really generally speaking in any sport, offense and scoring is a good way to bring in people who aren't otherwise interested in the game, and subsequently traditionalists who aren't interested in an influx of casual fans tend to favor defense and see it as "more pure" and "how they used to play" or what have you.

[Brooklyn Dude 488]

12 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

The problem with all your arguments is they aren't based in what I like to call reality.  The DH won't significantly increase scoring. I posted numbers to show that on the previous page. The NL has outscored the AL many times in the last 15 years. But you buried your head in the sand like when I brought up o/u. 

In terms of scoring. The ball >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NL DH.  But burry away.

 

Here's more. Keep burying though.

 

 

 

The NL literally had less runs per game last season with a DH

 

 

I don't think the amount of runs scored is an issue as much as the time it takes to play games.  The time to play a game has increased about twenty minutes since 2005.

 

Also the way baseball is played with launch angle and homeruns with little worry about strike outs has made the game a bit less interesting for me.  The shift has not helped very much either.  Getting into bullpens earlier and earlier is not great either.  RP's now have to deal with a three batter minimum as a result.  Is it better or just different. 

[brockpapersizer 11,928]

8 minutes ago, Brooklyn Dude said:

 

I don't think the amount of runs scored is an issue as much as the time it takes to play games.  The time to play a game has increased about twenty minutes since 2005.

 

Also the way baseball is played with launch angle and homeruns with little worry about strike outs has made the game a bit less interesting for me.  The shift has not helped very much either.  Getting into bullpens earlier and earlier is not great either.  RP's now have to deal with a three batter minimum as a result.  Is it better or just different. 

Yeah that's fine, there's a lot of issues at play here.  I'm just trying to point out adding a DH to the NL will not make 15-13 run games regular like one poster implied. And like him, I do prefer a pitchers duel to that score any day.

 

 I also don't think many people who are pro DH (like me) are in favor of it because we want to see higher scoring games.  I recognize that a DH over a pitcher adjusted long term will result in more runs, but not a significant amount.   

The ball did a lot more for those scores than the DH, I'm not pro juiced ball.

Edited February 16 by brockpapersizer

[shakestreet 4,103]

35 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

The NL has outscored the AL many times in the last 15 years. But you buried your head in the sand like when I brought up o/u. 

I have no idea where you found those numbers ... I found a two graph 75-2016 the AL has outscored the NL every year. I tried to post but it comes up as too big. 

[HOOTIE 1,086]

3 hours ago, posty said:

So basically you are saying that fans of NL type baseball are idiots because we like the game the way that is was supposed to be?

Where did anybody use the word idiots?

Suppose to be?

The game was played only by whites at one time. Was it suppose to be that way?

It was played with a high mound?

Was it suppose to be?

Played with AL playing NL in WS.

No divisions, no playoffs, no wildcards.

Was it suppose to be?

If you like watching a pitcher stand there and take 3 strikes, then enjoy.

It's a good time to make a beer run I guess.

[brockpapersizer 11,928]

2 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

I have no idea where you found those numbers ... I found a two graph 75-2016 the AL has outscored the NL every year. I tried to post but it comes up as too big. 

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiruns4.shtml

 

It was the first google response to "nl vs al scoring year by year"

Wasn't intentional if the numbers are wrong. 

Edited February 16 by brockpapersizer

[posty 1,373]

9 minutes ago, Brooklyn Dude said:

Also the way baseball is played with launch angle and homeruns with little worry about strike outs has made the game a bit less interesting for me.  The shift has not helped very much either.  Getting into bullpens earlier and earlier is not great either.  RP's now have to deal with a three batter minimum as a result.  Is it better or just different. 

Everyone worrying about launch angle and home runs is going to kill baseball...  StatCast is one of the worst things for the enjoyment of watching the game...  I wish there was a way to disable that crap showing on the screen...  Some of us don't give a rat's a** about launch angle, spin rotation, bat speed, ball speed, etc...  Just announce the game, but of course a majority of them can't do that either...

I don't mind the shift at all, I think it is funny that they want to outlaw that... Um, you are a professional hitter (supposedly), try to go the other way for once in 500 at-bats...

I already mentioned how stupid the three-batter rule was last year...  That rule should be abolished completely...

[HOOTIE 1,086]

2 hours ago, brockpapersizer said:

11,167	10,437	21,604	1997
11,360	11,939	23,299	1998
11,725	12,966	24,691	1999
11,995	12,976	24,971	2000
11,013	12,186	23,199	2001
10,892	11,516	22,408	2002
11,033	11,945	22,978	2003
11,358	12,018	23,376	2004
10,790	11,535	22,325	2005
11,262	12,337	23,599	2006
11,114	12,208	23,322	2007
10,844	11,741	22,585	2008
10,938	11,481	22,419	2009
10,097	11,211	21,308	2010
10,117	10,691	20,808	2011
10,088	10,929	21,017	2012
10,525	9,730	20,255	2013
10,161	9,600	19,761	2014
10,651	9,996	20,647	2015
10,970	10,774	21,744	2016
11,443	11,139	22,582	2017

 

Apologies for only going to 2017. Not cutting it off at a convenient time, the website went to 2017

 

Look at the first two columns, one is AL one is NL. Is there a substantial difference year to year?  Can you tell me without looking it up whether the first or second column is AL or NL?  The ball has more to do with scoring than the DH in all honesty.

And to make it clear I also prefer a pitcher's duel to a game with over 20 runs.  I still want to see good hitters at the plate rather than scubs.

Why bring facts into a debate? 😁

[shakestreet 4,103]

https://rsnstats.com/42-years-and-counting/

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-if-the-national-league-had-a-dh/

[Flyman75 5,076]

1 hour ago, posty said:

Everyone worrying about launch angle and home runs is going to kill baseball for me...  StatCast is one of the worst things for my enjoyment of watching the game...  I wish there was a way to disable that crap showing on the screen so I didn’t have to see it...  Some of us don't give a rat's a** about launch angle, spin rotation, bat speed, ball speed, etc and I don’t give a crap about those who do...  Just announce the game, but of course a majority of them can't do that either in the way I deem best...

I don't mind the shift at all, I think it is funny that they want to outlaw that... Um, you are a professional hitter (supposedly...even though I’m just a fan sitting on my couch with no clue what it means to be an actual professional hitter because I wasn’t good enough to make it there), try to go the other way for once in 500 at-bats...

I already mentioned how stupid I believe the three-batter rule was last year...  That rule should be abolished completely because I don’t like it...

Fify  

[brockpapersizer 11,928]

1 hour ago, shakestreet said:

https://rsnstats.com/42-years-and-counting/

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-if-the-national-league-had-a-dh/

 

It's weird we got different numbers, I tend to believe yours, wondering the reason for mine. 

The article is just whatever, it's biased, I'll spare you me googling a pro DH article (there are plenty as I'm sure you know) for my own confirmation bias. 

Even the article you concluded by saying it wouldn't change much to actual baseball, and that it's a baseball culture thing and killing off a particular type of baseball.  It is of my opinion that this particular brand of baseball doesn't serve a purpose worth saving other than for traditionalism. Many people are quick to point out how the strategy of when to pull out a pitcher for a pinch hitter is soooooo good, but fail to acknowledge a different strategy of lineup construction with a DH.  I'm not saying there isn't strategy in the former, just saying the strategy in the latter is different but still there.

[svdude 331]

7 hours ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

Many people are quick to point out how the strategy of when to pull out a pitcher for a pinch hitter is soooooo good, but fail to acknowledge a different strategy of lineup construction with a DH.  I'm not saying there isn't strategy in the former, just saying the strategy in the latter is different but still there.

Count me as one who loves the strategy of no DH.  Pitchers hitting can be fun, but usually not (Loved watching Bumgarner and saw a lot of great games with pitchers making the difference in games, Arrieta HR, etc.).  I really do like seeing a manager struggle with the choice of keeping a pitcher in to hit or not when he's rolling if they are down 1-0.  But I'm kind of a geek who enjoys the strategy as much as the sport.

[knifeparty 141]

I seen someone saying that the people wanting The Universal DH are all millennials who want nothing but to change everything.  I doubt many millennials frequent the Rotoworld Fantasy Baseball Talk Forums LOL!!!  I also know for a fact that a lot of old school baseball people would have no issue making the DH for both leagues.  People saying they want to see more runs is fine and dandy I don't think it will increase runs the way some are thinking it will.  My main reasoning for wanting the DH in both leagues is I am sick of SP getting pinch hit for when they have 80 pitches and are in a close game.  I guess you can say I want to see pitchers pitch and hitters hit.  I know that sounds crazy and woke as the kids say but I guess I am a 40 year old millennial!  

Edited February 17 by knifeparty

[Fbaseballgod 343]

DH should be here Bc pitchers getting injured for a token at bat is trash, and pitchers getting taken out (probably when they were gonna give me a QS) because of an antiquated rule is terrible.  Everything else is a cherry on top 

[shakestreet 4,103]

4 hours ago, knifeparty said:

My main reasoning for wanting the DH in both leagues is I am sick of SP getting pinch hit for when they have 80 pitches and are in a close game.

 

1 hour ago, Fbaseballgod said:

and pitchers getting taken out (probably when they were gonna give me a QS) because of an antiquated rule is terrible.

Not to single anybody out ...but to everyone that wants a universal DH is it because of a fake game we play. 

[posty 1,373]

2 hours ago, Fbaseballgod said:

DH should be here Bc pitchers getting injured for a token at bat is trash, and pitchers getting taken out (probably when they were gonna give me a QS) because of an antiquated rule is terrible.  Everything else is a cherry on top 

[knifeparty 141]

40 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

 

Not to single anybody out ...but to everyone that wants a universal DH is it because of a fake game we play. 

I would be lying if I said it doesn't have some reasoning but it's only a small % (10%) of why I want the DH.  I really thought my reasoning about SP pitching deeper into games would appease the old school baseball fan.  I get we will never see guys consistently throwing complete games again but I just can't stomach when a guy gets pulled for a pinch hitter in the 7th of a 1-1 game.