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1 hour ago, AHF said:

This seems like the absolute best approach.  Will likely require some manufacturing adjustments from their suppliers but making it so the balls are pre-treated and nothing else is permitted is the cleanest solution by far.

That change the ball every year anyways what’s one more change request to Rawlings?

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Only if you ignore the fact that MLB has used the same empty sternly-worded threat approach before but didn't do any enforcement.  This led to a loss in credibility, and a sense that MLB was just cove

"It's so hard to grip the ball," a frustrated Cole said after the New York Yankees' 3-2 win. "For Pete's sake, it's part of the reason why almost every player on the field has had something, regardles

I'm drafting all knuckleballers this year. 

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Glasnow situation is circumstantial at best. These injuries happen every year. I’m sure due to timing he believes it’s because he didn’t use sticky stuff one outing, but no way to substantiate. Woodruff, for one, seems to push back on that notion. Maybe some pitchers are happy things will be uniform and some of these guys won’t get away with egregiously taking advantage of what was left alone and self-policed for years. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Backdoor Slider said:

Glasnow situation is circumstantial at best. These injuries happen every year. I’m sure due to timing he believes it’s because he didn’t use sticky stuff one outing, but no way to substantiate. Woodruff, for one, seems to push back on that notion. Maybe some pitchers are happy things will be uniform and some of these guys won’t get away with egregiously taking advantage of what was left alone and self-policed for years. 

 


And maybe take a different approach to adjusting instead of griping the ball harder and still trying to throw 100?

 

Sucks and I hate it for Glasnow. And I think mlb should have timed this better but pitchers have to deal. 

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2 minutes ago, Members_Only_76 said:


And maybe take a different approach to adjusting instead of griping the ball harder and still trying to throw 100?

 

Sucks and I hate it for Glasnow. And I think mlb should have timed this better but pitchers have to deal. 

Yeah and I even wonder about that. I heard about this as the season was coming. I think you can blame MLB for not following through in the past, but I wonder if they did tell all the teams and it was met with a collective sigh and eye roll like, “Yeah, we’ve heard this before.” And they went on and so now they’re doing in-game checks to prove they’re serious?

I don’t know, but doesn’t feel “out of nowhere” to me. 

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All of them must be using something. If you are a pitcher trying to make it and you know that adding crap on yo digits will help you grip and spin the ball better, and everyone else is doing it, wouldn't you?

What a wild card to be introduced mid-season...  (If it's strictly enforced)

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The Athletic: Are we already seeing effects from MLB’s looming sticky stuff crackdown? (Sub required)

Some excerpts:

Quote

 

But already, context becomes important. Those strikeout rate changes are fully in line with historical monthly changes, since offense peaks in August; for example, in June 2019, we saw a dip of almost exactly the same magnitude between April and June.

month-by-month-ks.png

Small-to-medium spin rate dips from guys like Gerrit Cole have made for interesting social media debate, but the evidence isn’t there that pitchers are quitting the hard stuff en masse. No matter how one defines the cutoff, believable spin rate changes, the number of pitchers who are seeing big swings is much lower than you might have seen suggested on Twitter.

Quote

To understand how much of an offensive bounceback we may see, it’s important to conceptualize the problem: Not every pitcher in the league is using something. And some are using fairly benign substances, like rosin and sunscreen, which have been shown not to lead to the same kind of spin rate jumps.

The Athletic asked nearly a dozen hitters, pitchers, coaches, managers and executives around baseball what percentage of pitchers they believe are using the hard stuff. The responses varied, but most fell within the 40-60 percent range.

“Quick guess: 15 percent use super strong glue stuff, 30 percent use stronger pine tar mix/Angels clubhouse type level of mix, 30 percent use a mix of lighter sticky stuff or sunscreen. 20 percent use nothing,” said a veteran pitcher. “If I’m off by more than 10 percent on any of those, I would be surprised.”

An NL hitter opined, “A very select few are completely out of control, where there’s visible marks. I’d guess about half the pitchers are using serious substances, maybe as many as 60-65, tops.”

 

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1 hour ago, Backdoor Slider said:

Glasnow situation is circumstantial at best. These injuries happen every year. I’m sure due to timing he believes it’s because he didn’t use sticky stuff one outing, but no way to substantiate. Woodruff, for one, seems to push back on that notion. Maybe some pitchers are happy things will be uniform and some of these guys won’t get away with egregiously taking advantage of what was left alone and self-policed for years. 

 

I tend to agree in this instance, but also impossible to deny how strongly Glasnow feels about it. Its good to see some confidence expressed by Woodruff, because I do think the pitchers can handle this challenge, but there's going to be a lot of negativity and complaining. 

It really reminds me of a few different work situations I've had in the past, where all of a sudden management decided to start monitoring, timing and micro managing everything. We pushed back as much as we could, and still would cut corners the way we knew how to do things more efficiently, but at a certain point they kept watching things to where it wasn't worth it to dick around, you just had to become a robot about it, basically. I left those jobs eventually because they took all the fun away and the motivation as well. Pitchers can do it but there will be some major growing pains. I mean, a simple spot check from an umpire could be enough to throw a pitcher off his rhythm or focus.

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Telling players to change their tactics before the year starts, when they're throwing BP sessions and multiple 40 pitch preseason games whith no stakes is perfectly reasonable. Waiting until mid season when guys are throwing 100 pitches and expected to win games then telling them to figure it out on the fly was absolutely ridiculous.  We'll never know if this is the cause of Glasnow's injury but he's right to be pissed. 

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23 minutes ago, Baur10 said:

Telling players to change their tactics before the year starts, when they're throwing BP sessions and multiple 40 pitch preseason games whith no stakes is perfectly reasonable. Waiting until mid season when guys are throwing 100 pitches and expected to win games then telling them to figure it out on the fly was absolutely ridiculous.  We'll never know if this is the cause of Glasnow's injury but he's right to be pissed. 

He only has himself to blame...  He was cheating to get the extra revolutions and since MLB is going to crack down, he knew (along with others) that he would be exposed...  So he tried extra hard to keep the spin going and the torque he applied to attempt to keep the fabricated spin rate came back with a vengeance...  Him blaming MLB on his injury is the same as him taking his ball and going home when he doesn't get his way...

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6 hours ago, Bregatron said:

 

In his post game interview, he said it was a "finger issue in the bullpen" during pre-game warmups...whatever that might mean. I'd wait another game to see what's going on there. Think however Baseball Savant didn't show massive spin declines on his pitches overall though.

 

Hopefully it was a slight blister, it was like watching a different pitcher. He cashed in the curve, but his change was astounding compared to other outings. Even the Stros play by play mentioned the crackdown as a possibility. I'm an unapologetic Houston fan, but I believe it's more than a little finger issue. That curve has been his go-to pitch since his arrival.

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21 minutes ago, posty said:

He only has himself to blame...  He was cheating to get the extra revolutions and since MLB is going to crack down, he knew (along with others) that he would be exposed...  So he tried extra hard to keep the spin going and the torque he applied to attempt to keep the fabricated spin rate came back with a vengeance...  Him blaming MLB on his injury is the same as him taking his ball and going home when he doesn't get his way...

It's something the league has been letting pitchers get away with for years and almost all of them do, but all of a sudden mid season is when they decide to crack down? Yeah sorry this isn't a kid throwing a tantrum. Again we'll never know if that's what caused the injury, but he's absolutely right to be upset and the league made a dumb decision. If you're going to do this great, but do it while pitchers are still warming up. Not mid season. 

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39 minutes ago, Baur10 said:

It's something the league has been letting pitchers get away with for years and almost all of them do, but all of a sudden mid season is when they decide to crack down? Yeah sorry this isn't a kid throwing a tantrum. Again we'll never know if that's what caused the injury, but he's absolutely right to be upset and the league made a dumb decision. If you're going to do this great, but do it while pitchers are still warming up. Not mid season. 

It wasn't all of a sudden though.  MLB back in March issued a memo stating what they were going to do between the start of the season and June 1st when tacky substances wouldn't be allowed any longer. That was close to a 60 day warning. If the pitchers didn't believe the memo that is on them not MLB. 

The big test will be the first time a pitcher is caught and MLB suspends them for ten days. How does the players union handle it? If they come out and file a grievance it seems like they are condoning it. If they don't file a grievance they are saying the players are okay with using "tacky" substances which has the potential of dividing the union between hitters and pitchers as hitters get paid for offensive stats and pitchers for stopping those stats. 

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30 minutes ago, Low and Away said:

It wasn't all of a sudden though.  MLB back in March issued a memo stating what they were going to do between the start of the season and June 1st when tacky substances wouldn't be allowed any longer. That was close to a 60 day warning. If the pitchers didn't believe the memo that is on them not MLB. 

First of all that's still making a change during the season though. Again if you're going to do something that fundamentally alters the way pitchers grip and throw the ball do it in the off season when they can go through preseason games and throw 20 changeups in a row at 75% strength. Don't send out a memo right before the season starts making vague claims of a crackdown mid season on something that has been largely ignored for decades. It's beyond dumb. 

Second off it's professional baseball, of course no one believed them. They're by far the most wishy washy and inconsistent major sports league with literally dozens of unwritten rules that are defended religiously and plenty of written rules that are at best given lip service (eg the 12 second rule for pitchers, rule requiring batters to try to actively avoid a HBP in order to be awarded first). If they wanted to take a stand and have a backbone now fine, but do it in December. 

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1 minute ago, Baur10 said:

First of all that's still making a change during the season though. Again if you're going to do something that fundamentally alters the way pitchers grip and throw the ball do it in the off season when they can go through preseason games and throw 20 changeups in a row at 75% strength. Don't send out a memo right before the season starts making vague claims of a crackdown mid season on something that has been largely ignored for decades. It's beyond dumb. 

Second off it's professional baseball, of course no one believed them. They're by far the most wishy washy and inconsistent major sports league with literally dozens of unwritten rules that are defended religiously and plenty of written rules that are at best given lip service (eg the 12 second rule for pitchers, rule requiring batters to try to actively avoid a HBP in order to be awarded first). If they wanted to take a stand and have a backbone now fine, but do it in December. 

MLB is damned if they do and damned if they don't. They also tried a year earlier by telling the clubs to reign it in. The individual clubs maybe some did and but more often I'll bet it was ignored The rosin/sunscreen seemed acceptable but players the last couple of years took it farther. I am not going to judge whether taking it farther was right or wrong as most people will always push the limits and then go past them

 

There are many rules that aren't religiously enforced that really should be. Batters needing to keep one foot in the box between pitches is the one I'd like to see

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14 minutes ago, Low and Away said:

MLB is damned if they do and damned if they don't. They also tried a year earlier by telling the clubs to reign it in. The individual clubs maybe some did and but more often I'll bet it was ignored The rosin/sunscreen seemed acceptable but players the last couple of years took it farther. I am not going to judge whether taking it farther was right or wrong as most people will always push the limits and then go past them

 

There are many rules that aren't religiously enforced that really should be. Batters needing to keep one foot in the box between pitches is the one I'd like to see

Yeah I appreciate them trying to stay consistent with rules. Just seems like a rushed ham handed way of doing it. Like end of last season release a list of approved substances (eg sunscreen) vs unapproved substances (eg pine tar) and start the strict ban to start the year so people have a full off season to adjust. Easy. 

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2 hours ago, posty said:

He only has himself to blame...  He was cheating to get the extra revolutions and since MLB is going to crack down, he knew (along with others) that he would be exposed...  So he tried extra hard to keep the spin going and the torque he applied to attempt to keep the fabricated spin rate came back with a vengeance...  Him blaming MLB on his injury is the same as him taking his ball and going home when he doesn't get his way...

If he was cheating, so was just about every pitcher in MLB. I doubt you can find many who don't use something to get a decent grip on the ball. 

I do believe the theory that MLB deadened the balls, then decided to throw pitchers under the bus when hitting declined too much. 

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48 minutes ago, Low and Away said:

MLB is damned if they do and damned if they don't. They also tried a year earlier by telling the clubs to reign it in. The individual clubs maybe some did and but more often I'll bet it was ignored The rosin/sunscreen seemed acceptable but players the last couple of years took it farther. I am not going to judge whether taking it farther was right or wrong as most people will always push the limits and then go past them

 

There are many rules that aren't religiously enforced that really should be. Batters needing to keep one foot in the box between pitches is the one I'd like to see

They should be damned on the side of not risking a massive rash of injuries for pitchers. Pitchers are already at great risk this season. Due to the reduced schedule in 2020, all established pitchers are going to have to deal with a huge jump in innings pitched this year. I've seen research in the past that indicates that such jumps put pitchers at higher risk for major arm injuries. 

Listen to how Glasnow described the way he had to adjust. He is right about one thing. Forcing pitchers to make that adjustment on the fly is insane. 

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2 minutes ago, Words said:

They should be damned on the side of not risking a massive rash of injuries for pitchers. Pitchers are already at great risk this season. Due to the reduced schedule in 2020, all established pitchers are going to have to deal with a huge jump in innings pitched this year. I've seen research in the past that indicates that such jumps put pitchers at higher risk for major arm injuries. 

Listen to how Glasnow described the way he had to adjust. He is right about one thing. Forcing pitchers to make that adjustment on the fly is insane. 

No they were damned if they did something and damned if they did nothing. You are going to have a hard time convincing me that it will lead to more injuries after the ban then before with the number of injuries already this year. Unless you want to take the position that all the injuries happened to pitchers that quit using and changed their grip.

 

The problem was Glasnow didn't believe that MLB wouldn't follow through. Of course he needed to change his grip to get the same results as he had using a substance but I personally would need more proof that it caused his injury. 

A year ago I had two surgeries to create a fistula. Three months after that the fingers on that hand of hooked. Was diagnosed with an irritated Ulmer nerve which was located right next to where the fistula  is. I maintain the second surgery is what caused the irritation. The second surgeon says the two are unrelated. Can't convince me there wasn't a correlation

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4 minutes ago, Low and Away said:

No they were damned if they did something and damned if they did nothing. You are going to have a hard time convincing me that it will lead to more injuries after the ban then before with the number of injuries already this year. Unless you want to take the position that all the injuries happened to pitchers that quit using and changed their grip.

 

The problem was Glasnow didn't believe that MLB wouldn't follow through. Of course he needed to change his grip to get the same results as he had using a substance but I personally would need more proof that it caused his injury. 

A year ago I had two surgeries to create a fistula. Three months after that the fingers on that hand of hooked. Was diagnosed with an irritated Ulmer nerve which was located right next to where the fistula  is. I maintain the second surgery is what caused the irritation. The second surgeon says the two are unrelated. Can't convince me there wasn't a correlation

Your argument really doesn't make sense. 

We don't know what injuries will be caused by the crackdown because it hasn't taken full effect yet. That there were already a high number of injuries this season supports the idea that it is insane for baseball to force another change that could lead to more in the middle of the season. 

I'm not saying that Glasnow's theory is proven fact, but it does make sense if you actually listen to him describe what happened. Also, he did believe MLB would follow through. That's why he stopped using anything two starts ago. According to Glasnow, he had to change how he gripped the ball, which then led to the injury. 

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3 hours ago, Baur10 said:

Telling players to change their tactics before the year starts, when they're throwing BP sessions and multiple 40 pitch preseason games whith no stakes is perfectly reasonable. Waiting until mid season when guys are throwing 100 pitches and expected to win games then telling them to figure it out on the fly was absolutely ridiculous.  We'll never know if this is the cause of Glasnow's injury but he's right to be pissed. 

They DID tell them this spring.  They also told them that all balls not hit into the stands would be checked after each and every game starting on Opening Day.  They just didn't follow through with doing all of this at first.  MLB just was dumb to think just telling them would work without actually enforcing their edict.

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3 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

They DID tell them this spring.  They also told them that all balls not hit into the stands would be checked after each and every game starting on Opening Day.  They just didn't follow through with doing all of this at first.  MLB just was dumb to think just telling them would work without actually enforcing their edict.

Right before the season started and then not enforced really isn't much better. All for them being consistent (for once) but given the huge number of pitchers who use some kind of topical and the fact that they really haven't enforced the rule for decades, not giving them a full off season to adjust is just inexcusable. 

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48 minutes ago, Words said:

Your argument really doesn't make sense. 

We don't know what injuries will be caused by the crackdown because it hasn't taken full effect yet. That there were already a high number of injuries this season supports the idea that it is insane for baseball to force another change that could lead to more in the middle of the season. 

I'm not saying that Glasnow's theory is proven fact, but it does make sense if you actually listen to him describe what happened. Also, he did believe MLB would follow through. That's why he stopped using anything two starts ago. According to Glasnow, he had to change how he gripped the ball, which then led to the injury. 

Sorry my narrative didn't make sense to you. I am trying to show that just because Glasnow says the new grip caused something doesn't make it true just like me claiming the surgery caused the irritation. 

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Three things that come to mind from that tweet.

One there is a break in the pitcher ranks.

Two all Marlin pitchers are now suspect

Three all my fantasy are invested in Rogers

Three seems the most serious though

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2 hours ago, Low and Away said:

 The second surgeon says the two are unrelated. Can't convince me there wasn't a correlation.

It is standard practice among doctors to never, EVER indicate that a prior medical procedure or diagnosis has caused or aggravated a subsequent problem.  Even if they do so, they won't put that in any report.

It's an industry wide practice to avoid blaming health issues on prior medical care in an effort partly to avoid litigation and partly due to the "thin blue line" effect of not impugning the efforts of colleagues.

Source:  hundreds of medical depositions and medical files examined.

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