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Pitcher substances/spin rate crackdown


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1 hour ago, Low and Away said:

Sorry my narrative didn't make sense to you. I am trying to show that just because Glasnow says the new grip caused something doesn't make it true just like me claiming the surgery caused the irritation. 

It isn't just to me. Your argument doesn't work. The current crackdown has little to do with all of the injuries the first two months of the season, when baseball wasn't really cracking down. Sure, they said they were going to be checking the balls, but it didn't really matter until they put some teeth in it and started busting guys. 

To be clear, I'm not saying Glasnow is definitely right. Maybe he would have been injured anyway, but he still has a point. To do this in the middle of the season makes no sense. What baseball should have done was start busting players in spring training, show the players that they were actually going to enforce the rule for real. I do believe it is happening now because baseball is making pitchers the scapegoats rather than admit they deadened the ball. Sorry, but substances on the baseballs aren't why pitching was so dominant the first two months of the season. That stuff has been going on for years. The variable is something else, almost definitely the actual baseballs. 

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Only if you ignore the fact that MLB has used the same empty sternly-worded threat approach before but didn't do any enforcement.  This led to a loss in credibility, and a sense that MLB was just cove

"It's so hard to grip the ball," a frustrated Cole said after the New York Yankees' 3-2 win. "For Pete's sake, it's part of the reason why almost every player on the field has had something, regardles

I'm drafting all knuckleballers this year. 

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Never said that was the reason for poor offensive starts by teams. I think it is partially a contributing factor. But the number of no hitters showed that something strange was going on. Deadening the baseballs should/would have lead to less HR. But an action can have multiple results that aren't always planned on..

 

 At least the season before the strike has become more interesting rather than getting up everyday to see what new player has hit the IL.

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Does this look familiar? Haven't seen the UP searches as of yet but i'm sure I will from the UPI (Umpire Investigators)!🙄

 

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Speaking about starting new rules in the middle of a season MLB is going to put the mound back a foot in the Atlantic League this summer. It is supposed to give hitters a tenth of a second more to react to the velocity of pitches. Sounds good in theory but wonder if the timing of implementation leaves something to be desired. Yea Theo

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"It's so hard to grip the ball," a frustrated Cole said after the New York Yankees' 3-2 win. "For Pete's sake, it's part of the reason why almost every player on the field has had something, regardless if they're a pitcher or not, to help them control the ball."

Here’s something to help out boys.
 

 

3983FDA1-069A-44D9-88DF-AA77D5FFBB64.jpeg

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15 hours ago, Words said:

Your argument really doesn't make sense. 

We don't know what injuries will be caused by the crackdown because it hasn't taken full effect yet. That there were already a high number of injuries this season supports the idea that it is insane for baseball to force another change that could lead to more in the middle of the season. 

I'm not saying that Glasnow's theory is proven fact, but it does make sense if you actually listen to him describe what happened. Also, he did believe MLB would follow through. That's why he stopped using anything two starts ago. According to Glasnow, he had to change how he gripped the ball, which then led to the injury. 

Can we stop with this bogus mid season change narrative? It's just flat out false.

MLB sent official notice to all teams in the off-season notifying teams they were aware of what players were doing and extra efforts to catch them breaking the rules were being made including analyzing spin rates of pitchers. Here is an article on the memo https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/03/24/mlb-cracks-down-foreign-substances-baseballs-help-hitters

This is a long standing rule. MLB issued official notice this off-season the were aware of players cheating and would be increasing efforts to catch them both in the act and through data.

The players ignored the MLB and kept doing it, now they are being punished. This is 100% on the players for brazenly defying the league and cheating even when given notice to stop.

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6 hours ago, StevieStats said:

Can we stop with this bogus mid season change narrative? It's just flat out false.

MLB sent official notice to all teams in the off-season notifying teams they were aware of what players were doing and extra efforts to catch them breaking the rules were being made including analyzing spin rates of pitchers. Here is an article on the memo https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/03/24/mlb-cracks-down-foreign-substances-baseballs-help-hitters

This is a long standing rule. MLB issued official notice this off-season the were aware of players cheating and would be increasing efforts to catch them both in the act and through data.

The players ignored the MLB and kept doing it, now they are being punished. This is 100% on the players for brazenly defying the league and cheating even when given notice to stop.

I'll put most of the blame on the players, but not 100%. MLB has spent years ignoring rules or giving meager punishment - if any - for various violations. When you create a boy who cried wolf scenario, it's easy to understand why the latest word wasn't really taken seriously by anyone. Heck, if teams really felt MLB was serious about this, they would have spent a lot more effort working with their pitchers to prepare for this moment. But it doesn't appear they did. They did the same thing players did - take these threats with a grain of salt. 

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6 hours ago, StevieStats said:

Can we stop with this bogus mid season change narrative? It's just flat out false.

Only if you ignore the fact that MLB has used the same empty sternly-worded threat approach before but didn't do any enforcement.  This led to a loss in credibility, and a sense that MLB was just covering their behinds rather than sincerely interested in policing foreign substances.  Heck, I don't think the players themselves had a really firm idea of what they wanted -- some hitters said they prefer pitchers get a good grip, some managers said the same...  It always seemed like one of those things that would just never be enforced, and you can't absolve the league of their responsibility for phasing in the enforcement in the middle of the season rather than "studying the problem" for 2.5 months and then suddenly deciding they'd seen enough. The time to study the problem would have been between 2018 when they sent the last letter and the beginning of the following season.

Instead, they dithered, and now they're creating a dangerous situation and messing with the integrity of the game in a way that's much more profound than if they'd established real, enforceable rules, changes to the ball manufacturing process, and/or an approved grip substance that was implemented on day one of spring training.

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4 hours ago, tonycpsu said:

Only if you ignore the fact that MLB has used the same empty sternly-worded threat approach before but didn't do any enforcement.  This led to a loss in credibility, and a sense that MLB was just covering their behinds rather than sincerely interested in policing foreign substances.  Heck, I don't think the players themselves had a really firm idea of what they wanted -- some hitters said they prefer pitchers get a good grip, some managers said the same...  It always seemed like one of those things that would just never be enforced, and you can't absolve the league of their responsibility for phasing in the enforcement in the middle of the season rather than "studying the problem" for 2.5 months and then suddenly deciding they'd seen enough. The time to study the problem would have been between 2018 when they sent the last letter and the beginning of the following season.

Instead, they dithered, and now they're creating a dangerous situation and messing with the integrity of the game in a way that's much more profound than if they'd established real, enforceable rules, changes to the ball manufacturing process, and/or an approved grip substance that was implemented on day one of spring training.

You said before but that article isn't dated and I read it and it's for this year... So you say they used the same language but I honestly don't recall them ever issuing a statement to the level like they did this off-season in the past with no follow up. 

In fact I plainly remember in the past Clay Buchholz getting busted for bull frog sun screen and Michael Pineda getting ejected for pine tar. The league may have been lax or players may have gotten away with stuff but it's not like they turned a blind eye.

It seems to me players got too comfortable and brazen about it instead of hiding it and using it too often.

As for your last paragraph it's kind of comical saying they are messing with the integrity of the game by not letting guys cheat after warning them before the season and again mid season.

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11 minutes ago, StevieStats said:

You said before but that article isn't dated and I read it and it's for this year... So you say they used the same language but I honestly don't recall them ever issuing a statement to the level like they did this off-season in the past with no follow up. 

In fact I plainly remember in the past Clay Buchholz getting busted for bull frog sun screen and Michael Pineda getting ejected for pine tar. The league may have been lax or players may have gotten away with stuff but it's not like they turned a blind eye.

It seems to me players got too comfortable and brazen about it instead of hiding it and using it too often.

As for your last paragraph it's kind of comical saying they are messing with the integrity of the game by not letting guys cheat after warning them before the season and again mid season.

FWIW, and maybe he's lying, but according to Bauer they told everyone they were going to be collecting baseballs to learn more about the substances in question, but there would be no exact penalty for it until down the line. The fact they're doing this midseason and not to start the year (and as the attention was on the dead ball) makes me think his account is accurate but who really knows. 

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20 minutes ago, StevieStats said:

You said before but that article isn't dated and I read it and it's for this year... So you say they used the same language but I honestly don't recall them ever issuing a statement to the level like they did this off-season in the past with no follow up. 

Yeah, that was some bad Google-fu on my part.  What I was trying to find was a reference to the memo referenced in this Ringer piece, but that was sent in February of 2020, not in response to Bauer's 2018 comments as I'd remembered it.  And obviously some other things happened in 2020 that would have made enforcing those rules kind of problematic.  So, thanks for the correction.

With that said, we're talking about a problem that MLB was certainly aware of at the time Bauer made his comments in 2018, and one that by February of 2020 they were already having to issue an official memo to remind people of the penalties.  To then wait until the middle of the next season to actually bother enforcing that, causing pitchers to have to make changes during real live meaningful baseball games... it's just not a good look, and could legitimately be a player safety issue as they try to make adjustments on the fly.  And for what reason?  Why not just enforce at the beginning of the season?

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If the pitchers supposed gripe is the new slick ball...Why not just give them the old ball? They were cheating with the old ball but since they’re all making it seem like it’s just to be able to grip this new ball, I’d just change the ball back. 

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9 hours ago, tonycpsu said:

Yeah, that was some bad Google-fu on my part.  What I was trying to find was a reference to the memo referenced in this Ringer piece, but that was sent in February of 2020, not in response to Bauer's 2018 comments as I'd remembered it.  And obviously some other things happened in 2020 that would have made enforcing those rules kind of problematic.  So, thanks for the correction.

With that said, we're talking about a problem that MLB was certainly aware of at the time Bauer made his comments in 2018, and one that by February of 2020 they were already having to issue an official memo to remind people of the penalties.  To then wait until the middle of the next season to actually bother enforcing that, causing pitchers to have to make changes during real live meaningful baseball games... it's just not a good look, and could legitimately be a player safety issue as they try to make adjustments on the fly.  And for what reason?  Why not just enforce at the beginning of the season?

They issue a memo  in 2020 asking for pitchers to reign it in. In 2021 at the end of March they issue a memo, which all players and clubs, are told the crackdown is coming. This memo explains when it will start (June 1sr) and how it will be enforced. It also explained why the 2.5 Monty gap in wanting to collect baseballs and gather data from actual games.

 

So in effect there was close a 13 month (Feb 2020)  window that pitchers knew something should/would be done. It was ignored. From March 2021 to June 1st it had been spelled out that the practice was going to be shutdown. Again it was ignored and life went on as usual. 

And exactly how is that not the players fault? They were actually quite  naïve if they would have even slacked off in the tacky use it could have thrown the data that was collected off and just maybe MLB wouldn't have thought the problem was that bad and swept it under the rug. Doubtful but the rash of no hitters and the dismal BA to start the season (worse then 1968) when MLB decided to lower the mound height to try and get more offense back into the game. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Low and Away said:

And exactly how is that not the players fault? 

I don't think anyone has denied that the players have an obligation to follow the rules. What some don't seem to accept is that MLB also has an obligation to enforce them in a responsible manner, and it seems clear to me that they fell short on this obligation. 

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2 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

I don't think anyone has denied that the players have an obligation to follow the rules. What some don't seem to accept is that MLB also has an obligation to enforce them in a responsible manner, and it seems clear to me that they fell short on this obligation. 

Before this crackdown coming how was MLB supposed to enforce? Going just by memory the only way an umpire could get involved was if the opposing manager complained about the opposing pitcher using something. Happened so rarely because your pitcher was probably just as guilty.

 

Again it is just by memory but it feels right

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The perfect scenario let the pitchers use whatever they want on the ball and let the hitters use performance enhancing steroids. 
 

Kooky idea or sane reasoning? 

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1 minute ago, shakestreet said:

 

The perfect scenario let the pitchers use whatever they want on the ball and let the hitters use performance enhancing steroids. 
 

Kooky idea or sane reasoning? 

Sounds weird  and wouldn't work. Pitchers would start taking PED to gain an advantage.😀

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21 hours ago, StevieStats said:

Can we stop with this bogus mid season change narrative? It's just flat out false.

MLB sent official notice to all teams in the off-season notifying teams they were aware of what players were doing and extra efforts to catch them breaking the rules were being made including analyzing spin rates of pitchers. Here is an article on the memo https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/03/24/mlb-cracks-down-foreign-substances-baseballs-help-hitters

This is a long standing rule. MLB issued official notice this off-season the were aware of players cheating and would be increasing efforts to catch them both in the act and through data.

The players ignored the MLB and kept doing it, now they are being punished. This is 100% on the players for brazenly defying the league and cheating even when given notice to stop.

It's not false at all. A rule with no teeth might as well not exist. Pitchers have been breaking the rule and MLB has been ignoring it for many years. To suddenly start handing out punishments in June is absolutely changing the rules in mid-season. 

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6 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

 

The perfect scenario let the pitchers use whatever they want on the ball and let the hitters use performance enhancing steroids. 
 

Kooky idea or sane reasoning? 

Well, in theory it could work, but also steroids are life ruining and dangerous so we wouldn’t want to incentivize them 

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44 minutes ago, Low and Away said:

They issue a memo  in 2020 asking for pitchers to reign it in. In 2021 at the end of March they issue a memo, which all players and clubs, are told the crackdown is coming. This memo explains when it will start (June 1sr) and how it will be enforced. It also explained why the 2.5 Monty gap in wanting to collect baseballs and gather data from actual games.

 

So in effect there was close a 13 month (Feb 2020)  window that pitchers knew something should/would be done. It was ignored. From March 2021 to June 1st it had been spelled out that the practice was going to be shutdown. Again it was ignored and life went on as usual. 

And exactly how is that not the players fault? They were actually quite  naïve if they would have even slacked off in the tacky use it could have thrown the data that was collected off and just maybe MLB wouldn't have thought the problem was that bad and swept it under the rug. Doubtful but the rash of no hitters and the dismal BA to start the season (worse then 1968) when MLB decided to lower the mound height to try and get more offense back into the game. 

 

The rule had been in place for many years before that. It was idiotic to think that a memo was going to change things. The only thing that was going to make any difference as for MLB to start enforcing the rule, which should have been done during spring training, with the threat being that the suspensions would take effect once the regular-season began. 

The use of tacky stuff isn't why offense was down the first two months of the season. We know this because pitchers had been using that stuff for years, but MLB decided to throw them under the bus and risk injury to its players anyway. 

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1 hour ago, Low and Away said:

Before this crackdown coming how was MLB supposed to enforce? Going just by memory the only way an umpire could get involved was if the opposing manager complained about the opposing pitcher using something. Happened so rarely because your pitcher was probably just as guilty.

Nothing in the MLB rulebook has changed regarding foreign substances, and no technology was recently invented that makes determining whether a pitcher is using foreign substances easier or more accurate.  MLB was free to institute this same crackdown at any time, and a good time to start would have been the season after one of the sport's most Extremely Online figures started revealing his own secrets, and those of his fellow magicians.  MLB could have (and should have) done so before, as the article I posted earlier suggests, a majority of pitchers are using, at the very least, a substance that is provided to them in every clubhouse for health reasons, or a substances that's in every clubhouse so that batters can get a better grip on the bat.  And that's before you get into the scenarios of how you can punish a pitcher specifically for sunscreen being on the ball when catchers and position players handle the ball, and are also wearing sunscreen.  It's hard to imagine more of a botched response to this.

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