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3 minutes ago, Wytchclt55 said:

Yeah but I'd rather he "got his work in" in the 9th not the seventh.  They could tie/take the lead and he won't factor in protecting the win.

Graveman is the fireman. He was warming up in the pen when Marco was scuffling in the bottom of the 6th. We will see him all over the place it looks like.

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3 minutes ago, arthurpete said:

Graveman is the fireman. He was warming up in the pen when Marco was scuffling in the bottom of the 6th. We will see him all over the place it looks like.

I understand this but I feel like everyone is using the term "fireman" incorrectly.  What "fire" is he putting out to start the 7th down in a 2-0 game with straw, maldonado, and altuve due?  You put in one of your other relievers there.  I get it's a close game but if that guy starts to struggle that's when you use, ya know, your fireman.  If you want to get him work, bring him in the 9th no matter the score.  It's ok to say it wasn't the best managing decision.

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16 minutes ago, Wytchclt55 said:

I understand this but I feel like everyone is using the term "fireman" incorrectly.  What "fire" is he putting out to start the 7th down in a 2-0 game with straw, maldonado, and altuve due?  You put in one of your other relievers there.  I get it's a close game but if that guy starts to struggle that's when you use, ya know, your fireman.  If you want to get him work, bring him in the 9th no matter the score.  It's ok to say it wasn't the best managing decision.

Did you perhaps tune into the game? In the bottom of the 6th down 0-2, Marco gave up a double to Gurriel and then walked Correa with Tucker at the plate. The whole point of a fireman is to put out a fire. With 3 innings remaining for your struggling offense to muster more than 2 runs while staring a few more down the barrel is exactly the fire you want to prevent. Marco was lucky to get out of the jam but if Tucker got on or drove in a run you bet your bottom dollar Graveman is in. 

No point in saving your best arm in the pen when you are down 0-4 in the 9th. Graveman was primed so he was sent out in the 7th, argue all you want about the managing decision cause frankly the manager doesnt care about your fantasy stats.

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5 minutes ago, LarryDavid said:

Doo doo baby warming up for the Reds right now top of the 9th up 6-5 to the Doyers 

That’s only because Sims and Antone are not available due to pitch count. It’s pretty clear that Antone and Sims are the top dogs in that bullpen right now 

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Not sure that's at all clear 

9 minutes ago, Fbaseballgod said:

That’s only because Sims and Antone are not available due to pitch count. It’s pretty clear that Antone and Sims are the top dogs in that bullpen right now 

 

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3 minutes ago, thefamily79 said:

Not sure that's at all clear 

 

 

Lucas pitched 1.2 innings yesterday and Tejay pitched 3 innings.   So it seems it is indeed the case.

 

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1 minute ago, thefamily79 said:

Not sure that's at all clear 

 

I agree with this.....not clear at all honestly..... and don't see the appeal with Sims at all.  Carries a 6.23ERA right now..... hardly closer material.  Garrett hasn't looked good and Doolittle has looked less than average this year.   The only thing clear is that Antone is easily their best reliever, with the best stuff.....he honestly should be closing games out.  If Cincy wants to close out games with confidence, Antone is that guy..... not the murderers row of guessing who will get it done with none of the others that necessarily instill confidence. 

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As someone who has followed the reds extensively, it is indeed clear.  They used both of them past their limits in high leverage spots on Monday and has to go to new guys for the saves today. And btw not that it matters but Sims has some of the nastiest stuff in the game and has like a 1.00  xEra 

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14 minutes ago, Fbaseballgod said:

As someone who has followed the reds extensively, it is indeed clear.  They used both of them past their limits in high leverage spots on Monday and has to go to new guys for the saves today. And btw not that it matters but Sims has some of the nastiest stuff in the game and has like a 1.00  xEra 

His xERA is 1.85.  But I am glad we can all agree that means utterly nothing in an sample of about 8+ innings.

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Anyone that says the Reds bullpen is “clear”.. I just can’t take a single word they say seriously after that 😂. I know Sims and Antone threw last night, I was watching. But there is nothing clear about how they are handling the end of the games right now, regardless of who threw the night before.
 

I think Antone is going to be kept to multiple innings and Amir has just been too ugly. Sims has the best stuff.. but my current “closer” guess with all things equal would be Doo doo right this second 

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28 minutes ago, BMcP said:

His xERA is 1.85.  But I am glad we can all agree that means utterly nothing in an sample of about 8+ innings.

Just like an actual ERA means nothing in 8 innings too.  But what does mean something is the fact that he has some of the nastiest stuff in the majors.  

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1 minute ago, Fbaseballgod said:

Just like an actual ERA means nothing in 8 innings too.  But what does mean something is the fact that he has some of the nastiest stuff in the majors.  

As someone who insists on having clarity of vision, I’m sure you can appreciate not wanting to muddy the waters with talk of xERA and the like.

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3 minutes ago, B&F said:

Dolis in the game with a 5 run lead?  Welcome back to the closer role Romano.

The answer to your initial question is: no, he was not.

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2 hours ago, arthurpete said:

Did you perhaps tune into the game? In the bottom of the 6th down 0-2, Marco gave up a double to Gurriel and then walked Correa with Tucker at the plate. The whole point of a fireman is to put out a fire. With 3 innings remaining for your struggling offense to muster more than 2 runs while staring a few more down the barrel is exactly the fire you want to prevent. Marco was lucky to get out of the jam but if Tucker got on or drove in a run you bet your bottom dollar Graveman is in. 

No point in saving your best arm in the pen when you are down 0-4 in the 9th. Graveman was primed so he was sent out in the 7th, argue all you want about the managing decision cause frankly the manager doesnt care about your fantasy stats.

First off as far as closers go, as of this moment I absolutely believe Montero is the closer and Graveman is a fireman/8th inning set up man.  Not saying Montero is good, but they're going to give him every opportunity to solidify the job.  As far as their bullpen goes, I think Graveman is their best reliever and they have other just "good" RPs in the middle innings (Vest, Sadler).

 

With that said, you said it yourself "the whole point of a fireman is to put out a fire" and we completely agree on that.  Graveman is an asset and a weapon for SEA.  When I said they could just wait and pitch him in the 9th I was responding to a poster saying they needed to get him work, I did not mean it from a save standpoint.  If you do that you wait as long as possible to see if he is truly needed but then still get him in for his needed work.  Obviously if it turns into a save then Montero gets the 9th.  They don't have the best bullpen in baseball so they have to be more careful when they use their stoppers and guys that save the game (from a literal sense, not the stat) from a blowout or lose leads. 

It was a close game and they're playing to win.  I agree with you on your hypotheticals that three innings are left and you want to keep it close.  But then, you give me a bunch of "what ifs."  

"Marco was lucky to get out of the jam."  I agree.

"if Tucker had got on or drove in a run you bet your bottom dollar Graveman is in."  I agree.

"No point of saving your best arm in the pen when you are down 0-4."  I agree

But Servais got by, those things didn't happen, and he still had his trump card...just to use him in the 7th vs the 8, 9, 1 spots due up which is not a "fireman" situation.

 

When Marco got in the jam, that was a good spot to use Graveman.  If Tucker drove in a run, that would've been a good time to put in Graveman.  But none of that happened.  It's like you're at your house and at 2am you hear stuff outside and think it's a break in so you load your gun and you only have one bullet ready to protect.  Turns out it was just the wind.  You don't go shoot your bullet in the air just because "hey, I already had to load it up."  If he knew he was taking Marco out regardless he should've had another RP up at some point to pitch the 7th.

Servais would've been justified to bring him in in those tense situations, fact is he didn't and Marco survived so he preserved the use of his fireman.  You can warm up Graveman but you can also sit him if not needed in high leverage.  If they took the lead in the top of the 8th and then got in a jam in the bottom 8th, what then?  That's a spot Graveman could pitch but you used him for a low stress 7th.  

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9 minutes ago, BMcP said:

As someone who insists on having clarity of vision, I’m sure you can appreciate not wanting to muddy the waters with talk of xERA and the like.

I just think it's silly to think that ERA within 8 games is somehow more predictive than xERA after 8 games

 

And before you say "well, maybe managers care about it," the Reds manager just put Sims into his highest leverage spot yesterday (besides Antone) so he obviously isn't worried about it.  And sims went on to strike out almost every Dodger he faced

 

Imo the "closer" might not be clear, but the situation is clear.  David Bell sees his relievers in terms of ability: Antone>Sims>Doolittle, hence why he used the former two over the latter.  It's muddied by the fact that Antone can frequently go 2/3 innings, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the "normal" progression if everyone is rested be Sims->7 Antone -> 8 and 9, just like they intended to do yesterday.  Or, if a pitcher has to go out early, Antone can take innings 6->8 and Sims can finish it off.   And then Doolittle in the mix the days after when Antone at the very least will be unavailable.

Edited by Fbaseballgod
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Neither stat is “predictive.”  It’s very important to understand that and not treat either as predictive of the future.

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1 minute ago, BMcP said:

Neither stat is “predictive.”  It’s very important to understand that and not treat either as predictive of the future.

Yes.  As I've said what I'm using to "predict" sims future output is the fact that his stuff is downright nasty, he was lockdown last year, his spin rates are borderline ridiculous, he still has his manager's trust, etc

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1 minute ago, Fbaseballgod said:

Yes.  As I've said what I'm using to "predict" sims future output is the fact that his stuff is downright nasty, he was lockdown last year, his spin rates are borderline ridiculous, he still has his manager's trust, etc

Ok.  I’ve noted your opinion.  I was responding to your first sentence, in which you said it was silly to think ERA would be “more predictive” than xERA. A bit of shopkeeping, is all.

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2 hours ago, Fbaseballgod said:

As someone who has followed the reds extensively, it is indeed clear.  They used both of them past their limits in high leverage spots on Monday and has to go to new guys for the saves today. And btw not that it matters but Sims has some of the nastiest stuff in the game and has like a 1.00  xEra 

So.....

Sims is the guy? 

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Why pretend like you know with certainly the situation in cincy? It’s a clusterf*** committee and maybe Doolittle has a chance too, for more than a one-off.

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Jake McGee has now given up HRs in 3 of his last 4 appearances. Go ahead HR to Hampson last night. Trying not to panic too much, but I wonder if he is going to start losing his grip on the closer role. Something to monitor.

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39 minutes ago, sasnumberonefan said:

Jake McGee has now given up HRs in 3 of his last 4 appearances. Go ahead HR to Hampson last night. Trying not to panic too much, but I wonder if he is going to start losing his grip on the closer role. Something to monitor.

Non save situation. 

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