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2021 May Closer Thread


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5 minutes ago, Fiveohnine said:

Pressly should have known what to do there. But the fact that he didn't is more a coaching flaw than anything else.

even if the catcher wasnt covering 3rd, shouldnt he have run behind home plate to back up the catcher?  thats what i was told to do in little league anyway.  by the time you make it to the bigs, that should be instinctual.  think he just got caught day dreaming or something.  at least he kept his composure and got out of the inning.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Fiveohnine said:

Pressly should have known what to do there. But the fact that he didn't is more a coaching flaw than anything else.

His little league or possibly high school coaches, maybe.

That's not something that major leaguers (or possibly anyone above rookie ball) should need to be drilled on.  

Edited by Overlord
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19 minutes ago, Fiveohnine said:

Pressly should have known what to do there. But the fact that he didn't is more a coaching flaw than anything else.

Nope

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Overlord said:

His little league or possibly high school coaches, maybe.

That's not something that major leaguers (or possibly anyone above rookie ball) should need to be drilled on.  

little leaguers still almost never play the shift most high schoolers never play it either. Hell, I've never seen the shift played at a minor league game, and I've been to many.

The majors is the only level where guys play the shift against the nearly the whole lineup every game. That required coaching the pitchers and bullpen on it as well. Not just the infield. I mean, maybe the LF was supposed to come in and cover 3rd. Assuming the coaches even covered it.

Edited by Fiveohnine
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1 hour ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Mr Soto's Misadventures at Fenway continued today.  He blocked his own fielder from ending the game then imploded much to the previous Tiger pitcher's ERA demise.

The previous pitcher finished with a 0.00 ERA for the day - as did the pitcher before him. 
 

That is how bad the “defense” was.

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1 minute ago, Fiveohnine said:

little leaguers still almost never play the shift most high schoolers never play it either. Hell, I've never seen the shift played at a minor league game, and I've been to many.

The pitcher's responsibility to cover bases is a fairly generic one not dependent on whether defenses are shifting, etc.  As a matter of fact, given that a play could unfold in one of a million different ways, players (in general) need to be aware of when they're obliged to cover a base as a general defensive responsibility.  

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1 minute ago, Overlord said:

The pitcher's responsibility to cover bases is a fairly generic one not dependent on whether defenses are shifting, etc.  As a matter of fact, given that a play could unfold in one of a million different ways, players (in general) need to be aware of when they're obliged to cover a base as a general defensive responsibility.  

Yeah. Pressly should have been doing more than just standing there. generally the pitcher would be trying to figure out where to back up though. not where to cover. Like I said, for all we know, the LF was supposed to cover 3rd and the pitcher back up home or 3rd. and it's an assumption that the coaches even stressed it in spring training.

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10 hours ago, Fbaseballgod said:

I can maaaybe understand Rodriguez. But he’s been elite for 2 seasons now (he’s gotta be the most underrated RP in the game, he hasn’t given up a BASERUNNER in the last 9 innings), and has an insane amount of job security because the bullpen sucks. The ONLY risk for him is a trade, but he’s also in ARB years and has 3 years of control so I don’t think it’s as forgone of a conclusion that he gets traded. And even if he’s traded, there’s a chance he closes for his new team.

For Kennedy. He might genuinely have the most job security on anyone on this list besides Hader/Chapman/Kimbrel.   The Texas bullpen is a toxic wasteland, the Rangers want him to accumulate value to be traded (now this is a genuine trade candidate), and I don’t see him losing his role even with 3, 4, maybe even 5 blowups. Whose his competition, Joely Rodriguez? And yeah, you might not trust him but he’s been PHENOMENAL so far and lots of save opps too 

Edit: and when I say understand, I mean understand for Clase. No way for Reyes, not even close 

 

 

I’m not saying Joely is going to replace Kennedy until a trade is made, but you’re awfully dismissive in that statement of a guy who is having a good season. 

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18 hours ago, Fbaseballgod said:

My subjective rankings 🔥

Tier 1: The  Elite Production and Also Rock Solid Job Security

1.  Aroldis Chapman

2. Josh Hader

3. Craig Kimbrel

4. Liam Hendriks

5. Matt Barnes

6. Ryan Pressly

7. Mark Melancon

8. Ian Kennedy

9. Richard Rodriguez

The Elite Production OR Rock Solid Job Security 

---

10. Raisel Iglesias

11.  Emmanuel Clase

12. Edwin Diaz (would be higher if not for injury)

13. Hector Neris

14. Brad Hand

15.  Will Smith

16.  Cesar Valdez 

---- MASSIVE DROP

The "I don't trust these dudes in either the production or "role" category"

17.  Alex Reyes

18. Kenley Jansen

19.  Yimi Garcia 

20. Stefan Crichton

21.  Daniel Bard

22. Gregory Soto

The true question marks

23. Taylor Rogers 

24. Tyler Rogers  

25. Kendall Graveman 

26. Rafael Dolis until Merryweather comes back

27. Tejay Antone (at least he'll give you good ratios)

28. Josh Staumont

29.  Pete Fairbanks

30.  Pick a random A's reliever 

 

 

 

Reyes is closer to tier 1 than tier 3.

You must really hate Clase. LOL at the corpse of Iglesias being ranked ahead of him, or even in that same tier.

How does McGee not even get mentioned? 

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2 hours ago, BMcP said:

The previous pitcher finished with a 0.00 ERA for the day - as did the pitcher before him. 
 

That is how bad the “defense” was.

Yeah I forgot about the error before.  Just Soto's error.  I think the Tigers made maybe 4 errors in  the game.  Can't remember right now since I had to step out some in the middle of the game.

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6 hours ago, Fiveohnine said:

Yeah. Pressly should have been doing more than just standing there. generally the pitcher would be trying to figure out where to back up though. not where to cover. Like I said, for all we know, the LF was supposed to cover 3rd and the pitcher back up home or 3rd. and it's an assumption that the coaches even stressed it in spring training.

The pitcher does not have to figure out anything. Has to know the defensive alignment and know what to do before he throws the pitch.
The LF never covers 3rd base, He has no time to get there from his natural field position. The pitcher has. The LF must back up the play to keep the runner(s) from advancing further in case of an errant throw.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, JCD said:

The pitcher does not have to figure out anything. Has to know the defensive alignment and know what to do before he throws the pitch.
The LF never covers 3rd base, He has no time to get there from his natural field position. The pitcher has. The LF must back up the play to keep the runner(s) from advancing further in case of an errant throw.

I know for sure this is at least sometimes wrong because I've personally seen a LF come in to cover 3rd after a shift. If the ball is hit to the right side, there's really not much else for a LF to do other than cover or back up 3rd since 2nd base is already covered twice even if the 2B is a cutoff. I'm not saying that was the plan on this play (assuming the coaches had a plan). I'm just saying I know that is at least sometimes wrong.

Edited by Fiveohnine
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15 hours ago, cs3 said:

Reyes is closer to tier 1 than tier 3.

You must really hate Clase. LOL at the corpse of Iglesias being ranked ahead of him, or even in that same tier.

How does McGee not even get mentioned? 

1) Reyes has over a 4.00 Xera and walks a million batters a game and has Gallegos waiting right there

2) Iglesias has some of the highest job security in the entire game because of his contract and the rest of the angels bullpen is an unmitigated dumpster fire.  While clase has the best reliever in the game right behind him 

3) because he’s likely not the closer anymore and also he’s not.. that good?  He throws 94 MPH and relies on his command. He has no breaking stuff 

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Re: Reyes

 

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/sporty-videos?playId=50e7bef5-12c1-49b3-85fc-6810a30e9d02

Dickerson lines out towards the warning track with a runner in scoring position.

 

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/sporty-videos?playId=6444fc44-6a4b-426a-a3cd-b8739fa80101

Didi lines out towards the warning track with the bases loaded.

 

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/sporty-videos?playId=ce070e26-307b-4911-bfde-ff7505cc8e15

Yadiel Hernandez hits a one to the warning track in a 1 run game

 

So he's dodge a bullet 3 times so far this year.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Fbaseballgod said:

1) Reyes has over a 4.00 Xera and walks a million batters a game and has Gallegos waiting right there

2) Iglesias has some of the highest job security in the entire game because of his contract and the rest of the angels bullpen is an unmitigated dumpster fire.  While clase has the best reliever in the game right behind him 

3) because he’s likely not the closer anymore and also he’s not.. that good?  He throws 94 MPH and relies on his command. He has no breaking stuff 

Reyes only has two walks in his last five appearances, Like I've said repeatedly, he's not the same pitcher he was at the beginning of the season. He appears to have shaken off the rust and settled into the role. You're also putting way too much emphasis on job security in your rankings. It doesn't trump past and/or current performance or ability. 

Edited by jmcampbe11
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20 minutes ago, Slatykamora said:

Re: Reyes

 

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/sporty-videos?playId=50e7bef5-12c1-49b3-85fc-6810a30e9d02

Dickerson lines out towards the warning track with a runner in scoring position.

 

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/sporty-videos?playId=6444fc44-6a4b-426a-a3cd-b8739fa80101

Didi lines out towards the warning track with the bases loaded.

 

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/sporty-videos?playId=ce070e26-307b-4911-bfde-ff7505cc8e15

Yadiel Hernandez hits a one to the warning track in a 1 run game

 

So he's dodge a bullet 3 times so far this year.

 

 

I imagine you could do this for most RPs and cherry pick games / at bats. I also noticed that all of these games are at least two weeks old. There's no doubt that Reyes struggle early on, but if you look at his performance over the last few weeks he numbers across the board are much better. Is it so outrageous to think that young, talented player might be settling into a new role? 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, jmcampbe11 said:

I imagine you could do this for most RPs and cherry pick games / at bats. I also noticed that all of these games are at least two weeks old. There's no doubt that Reyes struggle early on, but if you look at his performance over the last few weeks he numbers across the board are much better. Is it so outrageous to think that young, talented player might be settling into a new role? 

I was using this to back up the metrics, sometimes the metrics say they are unlucky, but they actually are not. Sometimes players have a lot of close hits but have solid metrics.

You are correct in isolation, but this is with context it matters, because sometimes high BB rate guys do fine if they are un-hittable. He was not.  We are always using tea leaves of data for RP in judgement.  Those 3 games in 15 appearances.  

If you really want to me to take the time to do a control group (see how many several other RPs have good luck outcomes in 15 appearances). I guess I could.

Edited by Slatykamora
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29 minutes ago, jmcampbe11 said:

Reyes only has two walks in his last five appearances, Like I've said repeatedly, he's not the same pitcher he was at the beginning of the season. He appears to have shaken off the rust and settled into the role. You're also putting way too much emphasis on job security in your rankings. It doesn't trump past and/or current performance or ability. 

You are correct that my #1 metric is job security, but I disagree that I’m putting too much weight on it.  Relievers are fickle and volatile (besides the guys like Chapman and hader) and we’ve seen time and time again how the “better” pitchers don’t end up in the closing role for one reason or another.  When I’m picking up, drafting, or trading a closer, I’m picking them up for saves.  Being basically secured for the entire season like Iglesias is very valuable to me, even if he’s not as good a pitcher as Clase 

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2 hours ago, Slatykamora said:

I was using this to back up the metrics, sometimes the metrics say they are unlucky, but they actually are not. Sometimes players have a lot of close hits but have solid metrics.

You are correct in isolation, but this is with context it matters, because sometimes high BB rate guys do fine if they are un-hittable. He was not.  We are always using tea leaves of data for RP in judgement.  Those 3 games in 15 appearances.  

If you really want to me to take the time to do a control group (see how many several other RPs have good luck outcomes in 15 appearances). I guess I could.

I don't think that's necessary. The main point that I was trying to make is that Reyes is a young pitcher who was thrust into a completely new role. I think he deserves a little more rope (at least early on) when you're passing judgement than someone who has been in the role for a number of years. 

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