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12 hours ago, bluntbros said:

He watched as Big Mac and Sosa were basically force fed roids by the commish and everything was honkey dory. They were must see tv. I think they even interrupted a presidential speech when they were up to bat.

Barry thought to himself...if America and baseball love what’s going on here, just wait til I show them what I can do with super drugs. And he did. And it was amazing.

The amount of baseball fans that were spawned from that Bonds season has to be astronomical. 

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1 hour ago, Backdoor Slider said:

The only thing that has really ever bugged me about the cheaters (I get why Bonds wanted to keep up with Sosa and McGwire and Hell, he was better than Griffey and never got the love), is the “collateral damage.”

Is Lou Whitaker not in the HOF because when his time was up his numbers paled in comparison? Kenny Lofton was the premier leadoff hitter of the era and was one and done. David Cone was a very good pitcher who pitched through the era.

I’m kinda a big Hall guy anyway, but would like to see some of these other guys enshrined. 

 

This.

If Bonds and others aren't allowed in, bring in Lofton and others who would probably be there if not for the steroid era.

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1 hour ago, Members_Only_76 said:

 

agree to disagree. 

 

 

ha so ur saying going from a 30-40 hr 1000-1100 ops guy up until age 35 to a 1380-1422ops (age 39), 45-49-73hr guy is what the substance is doing for sp?

fwiw bond hit 30 bombs 1 time in his first 6 seasons

 

edit- or are you saying ban all cheaters?

Edited by colepenhagen
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1 minute ago, colepenhagen said:

ha so ur saying going from a 30-40 hr 1000-1100 ops guy up until age 35 to a 1380-1422ops (age 39), 45-49-73hr guy is what the substance is doing for sp?

fwiw bond hit 30 bombs 1 time in his first 6 seasons

I'm saying cheating to improve performance/stats = cheating to improve performance/stats. Whether a pitcher or a hitter.

And what if someone like Alex Bregman goes on to have a HOF type career, keep him out because he cheated right?

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10 minutes ago, Members_Only_76 said:

I'm saying cheating to improve performance/stats = cheating to improve performance/stats. Whether a pitcher or a hitter.

And what if someone like Alex Bregman goes on to have a HOF type career, keep him out because he cheated right?

not at all what im saying. im saying all cheating/gamesmanship isnt the same.

Astro should be stripped of their WS title.

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I wouldn't let Bonds into the HOF.  He made a mockery of baseball imo.   Players who cheat should be punished, and not rewarded.  I'd much rather see Pete Rose in the HOF than see a juice head like Bonds.   

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48 minutes ago, colepenhagen said:

ha so ur saying going from a 30-40 hr 1000-1100 ops guy up until age 35 to a 1380-1422ops (age 39), 45-49-73hr guy is what the substance is doing for sp?

There have been 35 qualifying SP who finished the season with sub-2.0 ERA in the modern era. That’s fewer than once every two years on average. Last year there were three. This season, past the 1/3 mark, there are six sitting below 2.0 with another eight or nine in the ballpark. One guy is a full .2 below the dead-ball record, flirting with an unheard of sub-0.5. Say what you want about “game has changed… Driveline… flyball revolution… yada yada…” — these guys are throwing 100 mph aspirin tablets that dance like a wiffle ball and the results are making the same mockery of the historical pitching numbers that Barry did at the plate with his football body, football drugs and football pads. Results: the games themselves get more and more painfully tedious. Funner for me to just watch the results roll in on my phone over Top Chef or Lupin. 
 

Still, if deGrom gets tossed from a game next week with stickum on his glove, that’s no reason to keep him out of the hall. Same for Bonds and co IMO.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Overlord said:

Can you name some players you believe have flown under the radar but haven't been called out publicly out?

I don't know if he's been officially connected but, Ivan Rodriguez is in the HOF. Pretty sure everyone knows he juiced.

Craig Biggio. Albert Pujols. Everybody that didn't get caught that fell off after the crack down. Countless scrubs that barely made it but did because they used some assistance. 

Different sport but LeBron James has been on gear since high school. Just like ARod. Those two are one in the same.

Edited by this guy right here
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4 hours ago, C_McGillicuddy said:

There have been 35 qualifying SP who finished the season with sub-2.0 ERA in the modern era. That’s fewer than once every two years on average. Last year there were three. This season, past the 1/3 mark, there are six sitting below 2.0 with another eight or nine in the ballpark. One guy is a full .2 below the dead-ball record, flirting with an unheard of sub-0.5. Say what you want about “game has changed… Driveline… flyball revolution… yada yada…” — these guys are throwing 100 mph aspirin tablets that dance like a wiffle ball and the results are making the same mockery of the historical pitching numbers that Barry did at the plate with his football body, football drugs and football pads. Results: the games themselves get more and more painfully tedious. Funner for me to just watch the results roll in on my phone over Top Chef or Lupin. 
 

Still, if deGrom gets tossed from a game next week with stickum on his glove, that’s no reason to keep him out of the hall. Same for Bonds and co IMO.

ur talking 60-70 inn sample size in a weird late start year knowing you dont need 200 inn.

i agree if the substance they are using is giving them that much spin then they should not allow it. but to compare that tobonds career going from todd helton to the greatest hitter ever at age 35-39

that holds more merit and peds are clearly the reason for bonds numbers. like you said a number of reason could contribute to the overall sp domination.

 

im also curious on rose. unless you got prof that rose bet against his team then rose should be in 100000x's over bonds

 

edit- now when the sp numbers regress back to normal everyone will be like its the substance when in reality throwing a sub 2 era for 200 inn wont happen with or without the extra rpms

maybe degrom

Edited by colepenhagen
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53 minutes ago, colepenhagen said:

ur talking 60-70 inn sample size in a weird late start year knowing you dont need 200 inn.

i agree if the substance they are using is giving them that much spin then they should not allow it. but to compare that tobonds career going from todd helton to the greatest hitter ever at age 35-39

that holds more merit and peds are clearly the reason for bonds numbers. like you said a number of reason could contribute to the overall sp domination.

 

im also curious on rose. unless you got prof that rose bet against his team then rose should be in 100000x's over bonds

 

edit- now when the sp numbers regress back to normal everyone will be like its the substance when in reality throwing a sub 2 era for 200 inn wont happen with or without the extra rpms

maybe degrom

My stats are a little lazy, yes. But I stand by them. Will have an ideal sample for comparison at the end of the year if spin rates stay down. The eyeball test says the difference in stuff has been extreme, especially compared to what guys were throwing just 5-6 years ago. Sliders are filthy, FB are live to say the least.

As for Rose, what swayed me from your position was the argument that, if he’s betting on the Reds, even if he’s never betting against them, he will use his resources (especially his bullpen) differently around games which he’s got a lot riding on. That prospect, to me, is more fraudulent than doping in an environment where the only guys who seem to be telling the truth (Canseco and Caminiti) insist that the vast majority are doping.

 

(Push comes to shove, though, and I say enshrine Pete and Shoeless Joe warts and all. It’s a big party, everyone who brought love and excellence to the table should be invited)

Edited by C_McGillicuddy
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5 hours ago, dicka24 said:

I wouldn't let Bonds into the HOF.  He made a mockery of baseball imo.   Players who cheat should be punished, and not rewarded.  I'd much rather see Pete Rose in the HOF than see a juice head like Bonds.   

I agree with this sentiment but unfortunately there are already a bunch of known cheaters in the HOF. IMO anyone taking any substance to either gain an advantage or limit recovery or any player using foreign substances to doctor items is cheating. Whether it be amphetamines, the various forms of steriods, or pitchers using foregin substances it should all be one in the same. An advantage is an advantage. 

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43 minutes ago, quietj said:

I agree with this sentiment but unfortunately there are already a bunch of known cheaters in the HOF. IMO anyone taking any substance to either gain an advantage or limit recovery or any player using foreign substances to doctor items is cheating. Whether it be amphetamines, the various forms of steriods, or pitchers using foregin substances it should all be one in the same. An advantage is an advantage. 

This is a little disingenuous, no? And for the record, I’d put Bonds in. But this logic doesn’t hold up.

I’m a teacher. One kid glances at the kid’s test next to him. Another steals the answer key off my desk. “Both cheated, and advantage is an advantage. 10 day suspension for both!”

How about driving. You’re going 4 mph over, I’m going 30 mph over. “Hey, speeding is speeding. Both against the law.”

You get the point. In no scenario are these things equal. And neither is one dude throwing a spit ball or putting some uppers in his coffee anywhere close to the same as taking steroids and having peak seasons at age 39 and breaking all types of records.

If we’re gonna have a discussion, it should be an intellectually honest one.

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So I guess the baseball hierarchy of sin goes:   

Betting  > Sign Stealing (through unnatural means) > Steroids > Amphetamines > Pitching "substance"

Edited by Ecofolux
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2 hours ago, Backdoor Slider said:

This is a little disingenuous, no? And for the record, I’d put Bonds in. But this logic doesn’t hold up.

I’m a teacher. One kid glances at the kid’s test next to him. Another steals the answer key off my desk. “Both cheated, and advantage is an advantage. 10 day suspension for both!”

How about driving. You’re going 4 mph over, I’m going 30 mph over. “Hey, speeding is speeding. Both against the law.”

You get the point. In no scenario are these things equal. And neither is one dude throwing a spit ball or putting some uppers in his coffee anywhere close to the same as taking steroids and having peak seasons at age 39 and breaking all types of records.

If we’re gonna have a discussion, it should be an intellectually honest one.

Fair enough but I was responding to the previous posters comment that "players who cheat should be punished, and not rewarded." That's null and void because there are many cheaters in the HOF already. 

Being transparent and for my record I'd also put Bonds in as was a HOF'er well before any steroid allegations. 

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1 hour ago, quietj said:

Fair enough but I was responding to the previous posters comment that "players who cheat should be punished, and not rewarded." That's null and void because there are many cheaters in the HOF already. 

Being transparent and for my record I'd also put Bonds in as was a HOF'er well before any steroid allegations. 

So he was good before he cheated, so give him a pass?  I want to ensure I understand the logic here.

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10 hours ago, dicka24 said:

I wouldn't let Bonds into the HOF.  He made a mockery of baseball imo.   Players who cheat should be punished, and not rewarded.  I'd much rather see Pete Rose in the HOF than see a juice head like Bonds.   

So you think they should kick Ty Cobb out of the HOF is what I’m hearing you say. 

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On 6/14/2021 at 9:36 PM, ASHLANDARROWS1992 said:

Who gives a sh*t about roids’

its entertainment and he was a MUST watch while chasing the records!

and he was intentionally walked with the bases loaded..🤣🤣🤣🤣

people pay incredible amounts of money to be entertained going to sporting events, and for lack of a better reference, mr bonds was "MUST SEE TV"

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7 hours ago, BMcP said:

So he was good before he cheated, so give him a pass?  I want to ensure I understand the logic here.

He wasn’t just good before, he was clearly a HOF’er before is the logic. People can’t have it both ways. Everyone loves beating up Bonds but my original post focused on a cheat being a cheat which I’m fine with but any and all cheaters (regardless of the degree) should not be rewarded and be in the HOF. IMO you either put the hammer down and no one a gets a pass or everyone gets a pass (they’ll be an asterisk anyway). It’s crazy to me when voters foam at the mouth about steroid players entering when there are already many documented cheaters that have cheated to gain an edge that have been elected into the HOF.

Hell what kind of a HOF is it without the all-time hits leader in Charlie Hustle (Rose, who has done his time), the HR king (Bonds) and arguable one of the best pitchers in MLB history (Clemens)?

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3 hours ago, this guy right here said:

Was Ty Cobb a cheater?

Cobb was the dirtiest player that probably ever touched a baseball diamond. 
 

I used to be firmly against Bonds and Rose getting in, then you read (a lot) of historical records and realize the game is perfect but everyone who’s played isn’t. 
 

Let them in. I’m fine if they want to use asterisks or put them in the corner but their numbers are their number regardless of anything. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, ASHLANDARROWS1992 said:

people pay incredible amounts of money to be entertained going to sporting events, and for lack of a better reference, mr bonds was "MUST SEE TV"

Bonds was  ...IMO that doesn’t give him a free pass to the Hall. 

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1 hour ago, ASHLANDARROWS1992 said:

people pay incredible amounts of money to be entertained going to sporting events, and for lack of a better reference, mr bonds was "MUST SEE TV"

People also pay vast sums of money to see a fair event. Think boxing and if one fighter is paid to take a fall.

 

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The man made a mockery of the sport imo.  In Pitt he hit .275 with a 162 game average of 28 HR's per.   In SF he hit .312 with a 162 game average of 48 HR's per.   He did this while walking 1947 times in 1976 games in SF, versus  611 times in 1010 games in Pittsburgh.   No one threw to him  in SF and he still hit 20(!) more homers on average.   

Was he really good before SF?  Yes he was.  Was he a HOF'er?  Not at 27 years old he wasn't.  Being awesome thru your age 27 season doesn't guarantee you're a lock for the HOF.  The leagues history is littered with players who have great 5 or 6 year stretches and then hit a wall, or regress from their peaks.  Chances are he might have been, but we just can never say for sure.  

Edited by dicka24
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