Jump to content
NBC Sports EDGE Forums

Recommended Posts

I would ban the steroid users, etc. who cheated the game and nullify their career numbers.  Career home run leader is Hank Aaron.  Period.  The gonzo stats put up by chemical cheaters belong in their own category.  Say that Bonds is the career leader in home runs among the banned but don't compare his career numbers to those who didn't cheat their way to elevate themselves from "great player but not someone who would ever rewrite anything in the record books" to "legend who re-wrote the record books and put up numbers that no clean player will likely ever touch."

If Rose bet on baseball only after his playing career was done, then it would be an easy call to let him in for me.  I would put him in the HOF as a player and maintain his ban from holding any role within baseball.  Since he bet while a player and against his own team, that goes to competitive integrity of the game and likely warrants upholding the ban.  The fact that he only did it very late in his career is the only thing that makes me waver a bit on his case for the HOF as a player because as I understand it there is no question about competitive integrity being whole for the vast majority of his career as a player.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, AHF said:

I would ban the steroid users, etc. who cheated the game and nullify their career numbers.  Career home run leader is Hank Aaron.  Period.  The gonzo stats put up by chemical cheaters belong in their own category.  Say that Bonds is the career leader in home runs among the banned but don't compare his career numbers to those who didn't cheat their way to elevate themselves from "great player but not someone who would ever rewrite anything in the record books" to "legend who re-wrote the record books and put up numbers that no clean player will likely ever touch."

If Rose bet on baseball only after his playing career was done, then it would be an easy call to let him in for me.  I would put him in the HOF as a player and maintain his ban from holding any role within baseball.  Since he bet while a player and against his own team, that goes to competitive integrity of the game and likely warrants upholding the ban.  The fact that he only did it very late in his career is the only thing that makes me waver a bit on his case for the HOF as a player because as I understand it there is no question about competitive integrity being whole for the vast majority of his career as a player.

What makes you think Aaron was clean as a whistle?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, dicka24 said:

The man made a mockery of the sport imo.  In Pitt he hit .275 with a 162 game average of 28 HR's per.   In SF he hit .312 with a 162 game average of 48 HR's per.   He did this while walking 1947 times in 1976 games in SF, versus  611 times in 1010 games in Pittsburgh.   No one threw to him  in SF and he still hit 20(!) more homers on average.   

Was he really good before SF?  Yes he was.  Was he a HOF'er?  Not at 27 years old he wasn't.  Being awesome thru your age 27 season doesn't guarantee you're a lock for the HOF.  The leagues history is littered with players who have great 5 or 6 year stretches and then hit a wall, or regress from their peaks.  Chances are he might have been, but we just can never say for sure.  

Was he the only on doing it?

Why didn’t all the other players doing it have similar seasons?

Do you think people have completely stopped taking PEDs or do you think that science will always try to stay a step ahead?

I literally used to think like you. I wanted to preserve the integrity of the game. But once you start digging, waaay back, every generation has had their issues and everyone has tried to cheat since the day after baseball was invented. 
 

People advocating against Bonds think they are preserving the integrity of the game while failing to realize that for almost a decade the game was defined by steroid players. We can’t pretend that it didn’t happen. And honestly steroids were what brought the game back after the mid 90’s strike. 

Its also why MLB is trying to figure out ways to increase offense. People love homeruns. 
 

Create a controversy corner in the HOF. Put all the “cheaters” in there if that makes you feel better but the reality is that way more of the guys in their probably cheated but you never knew about it. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It all comes down to this:  If Bonds was well liked by the press and fans alike, there wouldn't be people saying incorrect things like "Hank Aaron is the home run king." or "The number is 755, I don't even know what Bonds has because he cheated (BTW, it is 762)."  This is all a story because of whom the player involved...  If it was another roid boy like David Ortiz that passed Hank, because he is loved more, it would have been accepted by now...

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, dicka24 said:

The man made a mockery of the sport imo.  In Pitt he hit .275 with a 162 game average of 28 HR's per.   In SF he hit .312 with a 162 game average of 48 HR's per.   He did this while walking 1947 times in 1976 games in SF, versus  611 times in 1010 games in Pittsburgh.   No one threw to him  in SF and he still hit 20(!) more homers on average.   

Was he really good before SF?  Yes he was.  Was he a HOF'er?  Not at 27 years old he wasn't.  Being awesome thru your age 27 season doesn't guarantee you're a lock for the HOF.  The leagues history is littered with players who have great 5 or 6 year stretches and then hit a wall, or regress from their peaks.  Chances are he might have been, but we just can never say for sure.  

Your timeline is off here. I don’t know anyone who thinks he went to SF and immediately started juicing. Most accounts have him hiring the personal trainer and taking steroids to recover after missing 60 games in 1999. 
At that point Bonds had already accumulated over 400 HR & SB, a 158 wRC+, and over 100 fWAR.  
And was lapping Griffey.

He was a no doubt, 1st ballot HOFer before taking steroids. 

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, posty said:

It all comes down to this:  If Bonds was well liked by the press and fans alike, there wouldn't be people saying incorrect things like "Hank Aaron is the home run king." or "The number is 755, I don't even know what Bonds has because he cheated (BTW, it is 762)."  This is all a story because of whom the player involved...  If it was another roid boy like David Ortiz that passed Hank, because he is loved more, it would have been accepted by now...

This is such a great post. 

We idolize the guys that didn’t get caught and villainize the ones that do. Because it sells. 
But just because the guys didn’t get caught doesn’t make them less guilty and allowing them in destroys every single argument against Bonds. 
Bonds had the personality of a hemorrhoid, but it doesn’t change what he did on the field.   

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does it matter what happened waaay back when? If I rob a bank can I use a defense of others robbed banks and didn't get caught why should I be punished?

Bonds was good steroids made him better. The body armor helped also as he crowded the plate taking away the inner half. Easier to hit when you need to cover only half the strike zone. 

 

Put Bonds in the HOF. He deserves it more than some of the crap players that are getting inducted now anyways. Thinking mainly of Baines. The HOF should have been for the exceptional players not the way it is getting watered-down by recent inductees

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Low and Away said:

Does it matter what happened waaay back when? If I rob a bank can I use a defense of others robbed banks and didn't get caught why should I be punished?

Well yeah...  DNA testing has solved cold cases that are 40 some years old...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Smallball said:

Was he the only on doing it?

Why didn’t all the other players doing it have similar seasons?

Do you think people have completely stopped taking PEDs or do you think that science will always try to stay a step ahead?

I literally used to think like you. I wanted to preserve the integrity of the game. But once you start digging, waaay back, every generation has had their issues and everyone has tried to cheat since the day after baseball was invented. 
 

People advocating against Bonds think they are preserving the integrity of the game while failing to realize that for almost a decade the game was defined by steroid players. We can’t pretend that it didn’t happen. And honestly steroids were what brought the game back after the mid 90’s strike. 

Its also why MLB is trying to figure out ways to increase offense. People love homeruns. 
 

Create a controversy corner in the HOF. Put all the “cheaters” in there if that makes you feel better but the reality is that way more of the guys in their probably cheated but you never knew about it. 

Why would you reward known cheaters?  And we're not talking about too much pine tar here.  We're talking about cheating with chemicals that literally make you 2x the player you would naturally be, if not more.   For me that's a distinct difference.  Someone not reporting the $800 that they made shoveling snow on the side versus someone not reporting $1m in cash income are different degrees of cheating on your taxes.  To me the worthyness of the players numbers are null and void because of how magnified and artificial they were due to chemical enhancement.    Arod, Manny, Bonds, etc. would be out for me. 

Obviously this is strictly my opinion and I respect that others disagree, or see it differently.  It sucks that we even have to discuss stuff like this, but as the saying goes "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin", and cheating isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, kmoore1521 said:

 

I think he's just referencing PED's

Possibly, but he said that it "literally makes you 2x the player you would naturally be"...  I would like to see the proof of this statement...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dicka24 said:

Why would you reward known cheaters?  And we're not talking about too much pine tar here.  We're talking about cheating with chemicals that literally make you 2x the player you would naturally be, if not more.   For me that's a distinct difference.  Someone not reporting the $800 that they made shoveling snow on the side versus someone not reporting $1m in cash income are different degrees of cheating on your taxes.  To me the worthyness of the players numbers are null and void because of how magnified and artificial they were due to chemical enhancement.    Arod, Manny, Bonds, etc. would be out for me. 

Obviously this is strictly my opinion and I respect that others disagree, or see it differently.  It sucks that we even have to discuss stuff like this, but as the saying goes "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin", and cheating isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

So if you don’t get caught you’ll be immortalized.?
Got it. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Smallball said:

Was he the only on doing it?

It doesn’t matter. Wash rinse repeat. I cheated you cheated we all cheated. Nothing wrong with cheating. Just remember, NOT every player cheated in Bonds era. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, shakestreet said:

It doesn’t matter. Wash rinse repeat. I cheated you cheated we all cheated. Nothing wrong with cheating. Just remember, NOT every player cheated in Bonds era. 

So again, if you got away with it your in? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, posty said:

What makes you think Aaron was clean as a whistle?

He sure wasn’t injecting horse manure to make his head 10 times bigger. 

19 minutes ago, posty said:

Link?

You actually think if  anabolic steroids wasn’t helping him he would have kept using ? 
 

https://www.overtimeheroics.net/2020/12/23/barry-bonds-stats/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Put him in and stop worrying about it. Bonds was one of the best hitters ever. Saw him turn on a high and inside 100 mph fastball pulled just foul that left the stadium. He was one of the best to have ever played the game. There are plenty of HOF guys that used something or didn't get caught. This is such a dumb and old debate.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

He sure wasn’t injecting horse manure to make his head 10 times bigger. 

You actually think if  anabolic steroids wasn’t helping him he would have kept using ? 
 

https://www.overtimeheroics.net/2020/12/23/barry-bonds-stats/

Don't see in there where it says that steroids "literally makes you 2x the player" as you stated...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, posty said:

Possibly, but he said that it "literally makes you 2x the player you would naturally be"...  I would like to see the proof of this statement...

 

Assuming he was exaggerating and doesn't truly believe that. And there is a good deal of ignorance out there regarding PED's. 

 

There is no doubt that PED's help, but there is no way to truly measure how much.

 

And you can bet your paycheck that for every Bonds out there are hundreds if not thousands of players that used PED's and their performance amounted to jack crap.

 

And like many others have alluded to, if the MLB and the fans weren't turning a blind eye to this issue while it was happening and basically enabling/encouraging it, and if others like Sosa and McGwire weren't using and getting all the accolades, Bonds probably wouldn't have used and would probably already be in the HOF.

 

I'm not condoning steroid use, whatsoever. And everyone is entitled to their opinion and probably won't change theirs at this point. But if I was faced with the vote. I vote "yes" for Bonds (but not without a certain taste in my mouth so to speak). It's a baseball issue, not a Bonds issue.

Edited by Members_Only_76
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh and @shakestreet Tom Brady isn't allowed into the HOF due to deflating balls and taking PED's. ;)

 

And a side note, IMHO if people knew how many pro athletes at the highest levels used / are using PED's - they'd be shocked or just deny believing it. Heck even cyclists got busted.

It's so common and I commend those that did and are doing it without, all naturally - they are getting short-changed but get to live with their integrity. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, posty said:

Don't see in there where it says that steroids "literally makes you 2x the player" as you stated...

I wasn’t the one who wrote the steroids makes you superhuman. 

 

1 hour ago, Members_Only_76 said:

And you can bet your paycheck that for every Bonds out there are hundreds if not thousands of players that used PED's and their performance amounted to jack crap.

Most definitely... 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Smallball said:

Cobb was the dirtiest player that probably ever touched a baseball diamond. 
 

I used to be firmly against Bonds and Rose getting in, then you read (a lot) of historical records and realize the game is perfect but everyone who’s played isn’t. 
 

Let them in. I’m fine if they want to use asterisks or put them in the corner but their numbers are their number regardless of anything. 
 

 

Well, if you're incapable of admitting you're wrong.

A lesson about Cobb and, more importantly, parroting things that have been heard as if they are fact.

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/14/2021 at 5:04 PM, Overlord said:

A lot of people realize too late in life that the phrase "Nice Guys Finish Last" isn't a joke, it's 100% true.

 

It's half true.  Malignant narcissists have an insatiable need to be "superior" to other people.  They are kind of empty and very often think of themselves from the outside in.

That drive will get them to the top sometimes. Other times it might land them in jail. Even when they get to the top, I don't think they're all that happy.

I think people realize too late in life that having a bit of money prevents a lot of problems, but having solid gold toilet seats or a wife with a bunch of plastic surgery contributes very little to your happiness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, this guy right here said:

Well, if you're incapable of admitting you're wrong.

A lesson about Cobb and, more importantly, parroting things that have been heard as if they are fact.

 

There have been several documentaries made trying to clear his name.
Reading old books with actual players talking about his character is way more than I needed to know about Cobb. 
 

I had to edit this because of your snide reply. 
You get the honorable task if defending a man that went into the stands and beat a cripple who was heckling him. That’s who your defending. 
 

So please, please lecture and tech me about how he was misunderstood. 

And please do note, that this wasn’t a single incident over a otherwise unblemished 24 year career. 

Edited by Smallball
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Low and Away said:

Does it matter what happened waaay back when? If I rob a bank can I use a defense of others robbed banks and didn't get caught why should I be punished?

Bonds was good steroids made him better. The body armor helped also as he crowded the plate taking away the inner half. Easier to hit when you need to cover only half the strike zone. 

 

Put Bonds in the HOF. He deserves it more than some of the crap players that are getting inducted now anyways. Thinking mainly of Baines. The HOF should have been for the exceptional players not the way it is getting watered-down by recent inductees

Technically speaking Bonds never officially failed an MLB drug test thus he was never caught red-handed going with poor the bank analogy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...