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On 6/17/2021 at 3:20 AM, ChrisChinMcCaffrey said:

The mlb don't need to because it will be bad for them.

But will they put Manny Ramirez and Ortiz in hof you will then have to put bonds in hof.

Its politics. Bonds is more of a hero if they don't accept him in hof.  He can be the bad guy too good for hof.

Ortiz, maybe.  But Manny isn't getting in anytime soon.

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On 6/20/2021 at 5:54 AM, StevieStats said:

The guy deserved a beating... Not like the guy was in a wheel chair, he lost a hand and fingers and Cobb had no clue until he got on top of him... The guy picked a fight spouting a bunch of nasty stuff throughout the game at Cobb and it wasn't until he started chirping about his mother sleeping around that Cobb had enough... 

Cobb deserves to be in the hall. He is. Bonds deserves to be in as well and the only people he beat were pitchers.

 

That's debatable, unfortunately.

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15 hours ago, FISH ON said:

Let's be clear here,  only Bonds knows when he started to cheat.

Curious, why did you omit his first 4 seasons in pitt? He ave. 21 hrs during that span, with ba's of:  .223, 261, .283, and .248..

Could he have started after those first 4 seasons? I mean, his numbers jumped after those first 4, so it is possible, whether you want to believe it or not, it is possible... lets not cherry pick since NO ONE outside of Bonds knows when he started.

In essence, this thread is full of, I believe this, or, I believe that, but no one is right or wrong, it's a personal belief, you either believe he belongs, or you don't.

I'm of the mind that if you have the talent to make it on your own merit, do it without cheating period. You are an idol to kids that want to be where you are, playing the, once great game of baseball, act like an idol, send the right message to the kids, not the message that cheaters prosper, that's not how it's supposed to go. He admitted he cheated, but tried to push his personal trainer under the bus by saying he never questioned what he was given as supplements, from BALCO of all places.

We're not perfect, but come on, he might have made it without, but we will never know, thus the question, does he belong?

I say no, but that's my opinion, and none of us are going to  change our minds from someone elses opinion..

Carry on.

If you're willing to speculate whether Bonds used steroids in 1986, then you may as well speculate everyone used steroids.

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41 minutes ago, 89Topps said:

Assume you're just going in on DHs here, but Edgar shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath with Harold Baines.  Edgar was substantially better.

Was he? Baines has more hits, runs, HR, RBI, I mean pretty much everything. Edgar is a joke, trash fielder pure DH with no wheels and a prototype mid 30s steroid juicer with 300 HR, 1200 RBI but a good batting average... But hey he worked walks when everyone was smashing 40+ dingers 😆

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13 minutes ago, StevieStats said:

Was he? Baines has more hits, runs, HR, RBI, I mean pretty much everything. Edgar is a joke, trash fielder pure DH with no wheels and a prototype mid 30s steroid juicer with 300 HR, 1200 RBI but a good batting average... But hey he worked walks when everyone was smashing 40+ dingers 😆

Not really interested in randomly speculating about steroid use, or getting into another DH debate, but you can't honestly believe Harold Baines was a better hitter than Edgar.  Come on.

.312/.418/.515, 147 wRC+ and 65.5 fWAR in 2055 games played
vs
.289/.356/.465, 119 wRC+ and 38.4 fWAR in 2830 games played.

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2 hours ago, StevieStats said:

Was he? Baines has more hits, runs, HR, RBI, I mean pretty much everything. Edgar is a joke, trash fielder pure DH with no wheels and a prototype mid 30s steroid juicer with 300 HR, 1200 RBI but a good batting average... But hey he worked walks when everyone was smashing 40+ dingers 😆

One of the best arguments I’ve heard.  Baines > Edgar

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2 hours ago, StevieStats said:

Was he? Baines has more hits, runs, HR, RBI, I mean pretty much everything. 

Playing almost 800 games will do that for you...

Actually neither of them should be in the Hall IMO...

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6 hours ago, 89Topps said:

Not really interested in randomly speculating about steroid use, or getting into another DH debate, but you can't honestly believe Harold Baines was a better hitter than Edgar.  Come on.

.312/.418/.515, 147 wRC+ and 65.5 fWAR in 2055 games played
vs
.289/.356/.465, 119 wRC+ and 38.4 fWAR in 2830 games played.

Edgar shouldn't be in the hall, 300 HR and 1200 RBI for a slug that can't field? That's Horrendous. He's in the hall because he took walks... His numbers are laughable. 

Edgar is so far down the list for his era, he literally only got in to the hall because he was nice to baseball writers and he didn't get caught using and baseball writers wanted to make a statement against those who got caught using. That's it.

He's a statement against known steroid users, not there on his own accord.

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3 minutes ago, StevieStats said:

Edgar shouldn't be in the hall, 300 HR and 1200 RBI for a slug that can't field? That's Horrendous. He's in the hall because he took walks... His numbers are laughable. 

Edgar is so far down the list for his era, he literally only got in to the hall because he was nice to baseball writers and he didn't get caught using and baseball writers wanted to make a statement against those who got caught using. That's it.

He's a statement against known steroid users, not there on his own accord.

Your hate toward Edgar is…strange. From 1990-2003, Edgar was the 5th best hitter in all of baseball (min 1000 games). Bonds, McGwire, Frank, Manny the only hitters ahead of him in wRC+. 

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8 hours ago, 89Topps said:

Second time you've gone in on Simmons.  Odd one to point out.  He's a top 10 catcher all time by WAR.  There are far more egregious inductions.

I don't see positional comparison as a barometer for the greatest of all time.  Also, not a fan of WAR.  Just because the other catchers that have played weren't that good doesn't mean Simmons was amazing.

He has a higher WAR than Koufax. Koufax DOMINATED. Simmons was a great player. Never dominated. 

It's Hall of Fame not Hall  of 

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1 hour ago, Backdoor Slider said:

Your hate toward Edgar is…strange. From 1990-2003, Edgar was the 5th best hitter in all of baseball (min 1000 games). Bonds, McGwire, Frank, Manny the only hitters ahead of him in wRC+. 

I don't hate him, just saying it's ridiculous a 300 HR, 1200 RBI steroid era DH is in the hall of Fame as an FU by baseball writers to users that got caught -- like Bonds.

You are quoting a statistic that only ranks him there from taking walks, he's a detriment on the bases, and he hit 3-5 in his career, but his biggest attribute is walking... when he should be driving in runs but he's clogging up the bases going station to station... 

Imagine spending your career as a 3-5 hitter, hitting 30 bombs only once, and in 18 years you produce 300 HR and 1200 RBI, while Barry Bonds cranks 762 and it's passed over for you because baseball writers want to send a message... It makes a mockery of the HOF.

Honestly, why is Lance Berkman off the ballot but Edgar in? Way more productive in a shorter career.

 

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6 hours ago, posty said:

Actually neither of them should be in the Hall IMO...

Correct 

1 hour ago, Backdoor Slider said:

From 1990-2003, Edgar was the 5th best hitter in all of baseball (min 1000 games). Bonds, McGwire, Frank, Manny the only hitters ahead of him in wRC+. 

One stat doesn’t mean a damn thing in my eyes.
He only averaged 147 hits & 21 homeruns in those 14 seasons 

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Folks believing that hits and homeruns are the best statistics for evaluating a batter is why the Tampa Bay Rays front office continues to absolutely destroy other franchises when it comes to player analysis.  

It's like believing wins and ERA are the best indicators of a pitcher's skill level.

Edited by Overlord
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4 hours ago, this guy right here said:

I don't see positional comparison as a barometer for the greatest of all time.  Also, not a fan of WAR.  Just because the other catchers that have played weren't that good doesn't mean Simmons was amazing.

He has a higher WAR than Koufax. Koufax DOMINATED. Simmons was a great player. Never dominated. 

It's Hall of Fame not Hall  of 

You don’t think catchers should be compared to other catchers?  That’s an odd take. Do you think any catchers should be in then?  I mean, Johnny Bench’s numbers aren’t really HOF worthy either then.

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3 hours ago, shakestreet said:

Correct 

One stat doesn’t mean a damn thing in my eyes.
He only averaged 147 hits & 21 homeruns in those 14 seasons 

He’s also one of only 18 players ever to have a triple slash over .300/.400/.500.

I get the argument against Edgar, but it’s silly to think his resume is just one line.

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4 hours ago, StevieStats said:

I don't hate him, just saying it's ridiculous a 300 HR, 1200 RBI steroid era DH is in the hall of Fame as an FU by baseball writers to users that got caught -- like Bonds.

You are quoting a statistic that only ranks him there from taking walks, he's a detriment on the bases, and he hit 3-5 in his career, but his biggest attribute is walking... when he should be driving in runs but he's clogging up the bases going station to station... 

Imagine spending your career as a 3-5 hitter, hitting 30 bombs only once, and in 18 years you produce 300 HR and 1200 RBI, while Barry Bonds cranks 762 and it's passed over for you because baseball writers want to send a message... It makes a mockery of the HOF.

Honestly, why is Lance Berkman off the ballot but Edgar in? Way more productive in a shorter career.

 

Curious if you think Joey Votto is a HOFer.

And I don’t think Edgar was used as some kind of message to steroid users. That’s an odd angle to take. It took him 10 years to get in. Bonds & Clemens were on the ballot for almost all of them.

Edited by 89Topps
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4 hours ago, StevieStats said:

I don't hate him, just saying it's ridiculous a 300 HR, 1200 RBI steroid era DH is in the hall of Fame as an FU by baseball writers to users that got caught -- like Bonds.

You are quoting a statistic that only ranks him there from taking walks, he's a detriment on the bases, and he hit 3-5 in his career, but his biggest attribute is walking... when he should be driving in runs but he's clogging up the bases going station to station... 

Imagine spending your career as a 3-5 hitter, hitting 30 bombs only once, and in 18 years you produce 300 HR and 1200 RBI, while Barry Bonds cranks 762 and it's passed over for you because baseball writers want to send a message... It makes a mockery of the HOF.

Honestly, why is Lance Berkman off the ballot but Edgar in? Way more productive in a shorter career.

 

Is your problem more that Edgar is in, or Bonds isn’t?  Sounds like you’re just channeling your Bonds frustration, arbitrarily at Martinez.  I just don’t really see what the two of them have to do with one another.

Edited by 89Topps
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13 hours ago, 89Topps said:

Ortiz, maybe.  But Manny isn't getting in anytime soon.

While I happen to agree with you, I don’t think that’s what should happen. Ramirez is far more worthy of a Hall of Fame induction than Ortiz, but the writers are stupid.

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12 hours ago, StevieStats said:

Was he? Baines has more hits, runs, HR, RBI, I mean pretty much everything. Edgar is a joke, trash fielder pure DH with no wheels and a prototype mid 30s steroid juicer with 300 HR, 1200 RBI but a good batting average... But hey he worked walks when everyone was smashing 40+ dingers 😆

yes edgar had 2 good years and a whole bunch of blah.  absolute joke he got in the HOF. tons of players not in  the HOF that had 5 times better careers then this guy ( Dave Parker, Bill Madlock  Al Oliver Dale Murphy, Chilli Davis, Dick Allen, Carlos Degado Andrew Jones. Juan Gone, Fred McGriff Jim Edmonds and on and on) and they all played Defense very ( won Gold Gloves and some won MVP awards.   

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5 minutes ago, Dislimb said:

While I happen to agree with you, I don’t think that’s what should happen. Ramirez is far more worthy of a Hall of Fame induction than Ortiz, but the writers are stupid.

Yes Manny is 10 times better then Ortiz  easy Ortiz is just a protected player for some reason cause he cheated has much has any of them.

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20 minutes ago, 89Topps said:

Is your problem more that Edgar is in, or Bonds isn’t?  Sounds like you’re just channeling your Bonds frustration, arbitrarily at Martinez.  I just don’t really see what the two of them have to do with one another.

My problem with Edger getting in is he only played Half the game and I can name 50 at least that had better careers then he did. Seriously look at Edgers career numbers He had 2 good season and NOTHING ELSE worth much and he never played defense ever. 

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1 hour ago, mks said:

My problem with Edger getting in is he only played Half the game and I can name 50 at least that had better careers then he did. Seriously look at Edgers career numbers He had 2 good season and NOTHING ELSE worth much and he never played defense ever. 

I wasn’t asking you. I’m aware of what your opinion is on the topic.

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