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7 hours ago, 89Topps said:

You don’t think catchers should be compared to other catchers?  That’s an odd take. Do you think any catchers should be in then?  I mean, Johnny Bench’s numbers aren’t really HOF worthy either then.

Lets say all the (fill in blank of random positions) stunk. Should the best the the bad be HOF? I don't think they should be. You're allowed to disagree. The HOF does. There are much worse players than Simmons in there. If you wre friends with the writers you made it back in the day. Dumb.

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10 hours ago, Overlord said:

Folks believing that hits and homeruns are the best statistics for evaluating a batter is why the Tampa Bay Rays front office continues to absolutely destroy other franchises when it comes to player analysis.  

It's like believing wins and ERA are the best indicators of a pitcher's skill level.

We can challenge each other over which player should be in the Hall and really never come to an agreement but hits & homeruns are the major barometer for entry to the Hall. Once upon a time when reached 3,000 hits or 500 homeruns he went directly goes to the Hall. Not anymore with homeruns and we all know why .... but damn if your good enough to get 3,000 hits you are going to Cooperstown, ever that comes down to character. 
 

I absolutely agree with your assessment of the Tampa organization.

Edgar was a magnificent hitter we all loved watching him hit but IMO no way should Edgar be in the Hall. 

That is all 
 

 

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1 hour ago, this guy right here said:

Lets say all the (fill in blank of random positions) stunk. Should the best the the bad be HOF? I don't think they should be. You're allowed to disagree. The HOF does. There are much worse players than Simmons in there. If you wre friends with the writers you made it back in the day. Dumb.

Being friends may have helped back then but turnover of voters eventually takes care of that. Maybe not fast enough sometimes but it will happen and then Bonds and Clemens will make it.

 

What seems to be letting more borderline players in what I think of the Bill Kinney Effect. Take a long career, use the six best seasons, and then use some obscure analytical Stat the player was above average at. Then campaign the holy hell out of that player, then rinse and repeat. 

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On 6/14/2021 at 8:07 PM, Overlord said:

Lots of things were part of the game for a long time.

Doesn't mean those things were okay.  

The argument isn't that they were okay. The argument is that people are kidding themselves if they don't think there are already PED users in the Hall of Fame. There will be more, too. 

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On 6/14/2021 at 8:08 PM, Overlord said:

No, there really aren't.  There are just guys who are better at public relations. 

**I'll give you just one example:  what percentage of married pro ballplayers do you think are faithful to their wives?  

So every player in MLB is a bad guy? How do you even watch while thinking that way?

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On 6/14/2021 at 8:12 PM, Overlord said:

Pete Rose!!  A guy who bet on games when he was a manager?!?!?!?  You have to be kidding me ...

Didn't someone do an analysis of Pete Rose's managerial stint and find several bizarre situations where Cincy hitters were disqualified for batting out of order, meaning that Rose had given a different lineup card to the Umps than he had to the players?  I'm going to go look that up, but it happened far more than one would expect.  

The guy bet on baseball, there's evidence he betted on his team to lose, then when he was caught he lied about it and personally attacked Bart Giamatti, who shortly thereafter died with the echo of Rose's blatant falsehoods still ringing in the public's ear.  

Rose is a different situation from Bonds and the other PED users. PED users are at least cheating to win. That isn't as damaging to the integrity of MLB as the perception that games are being thrown. It is crucial that fans believe teams are always at least trying to win. That wasn't the case for all of the games Rose managed. Even if you believe his claim that he never bet against his own team, he didn't bet on them every game. That had to affect how he managed. Of course, he is going to do more to try the game he made a big bet on than the one he didn't bet on at all.

Joe Jackson needs to get in well before Rose. Bonds, Clemens, and the others in the PED crowd need to get in before Rose, too. Just wait until David Ortiz walks right in even though he tested positive for PED use during his career. 

 

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On 6/14/2021 at 8:26 PM, Overlord said:

The MLB Hall of Fame apparently has a higher evidentiary standard than finding someone guilty of murder in a court of law.

The stakes are higher in the murder case, though you wouldn't know it from the way some people discuss this topic. :)

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2 hours ago, this guy right here said:

Lets say all the (fill in blank of random positions) stunk. Should the best the the bad be HOF? I don't think they should be. You're allowed to disagree. The HOF does. There are much worse players than Simmons in there. If you wre friends with the writers you made it back in the day. Dumb.

Simmons wasn’t even voted in by the writers.

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2 hours ago, this guy right here said:

Lets say all the (fill in blank of random positions) stunk. Should the best the the bad be HOF? I don't think they should be. You're allowed to disagree. The HOF does. There are much worse players than Simmons in there. If you wre friends with the writers you made it back in the day. Dumb.

Your hypothetical is asking me to believe there hasn’t been any good catchers in over 150 years of baseball.  If that were the case, I’d have to believe the position is far more difficult than the others and that those players should be judged differently.

 So again, I’d have to ask, do you think any catchers should be in the Hall?  Bench hit .267, OPSed .817, had just over 2000 hits and hit 389 HRs.  Carter, Fisk & Berra were fairly comparable. 

Do you think any current catchers should get in?  Posey?  Molina?

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59 minutes ago, Words said:

Joe Jackson needs to get in well before Rose. Bonds, Clemens, and the others in the PED crowd need to get in before Rose, too. Just wait until David Ortiz walks right in even though he tested positive for PED use during his career. 

Jackson definitely should get in before Rose and way before him...  Rose shouldn't be able to get in until way after this death and after Jackson does...

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15 hours ago, Overlord said:

Folks believing that hits and homeruns are the best statistics for evaluating a batter is why the Tampa Bay Rays front office continues to absolutely destroy other franchises when it comes to player analysis.  

It's like believing wins and ERA are the best indicators of a pitcher's skill level.

While I generally agree with the sentiment, I feel the need to note that the Rays competitive advantage is considerably more complex than what is described here. There isn't a single team that uses hits/batting average/homers/wins/ERA etc to evaluate player skill and hasn't been in quite some time. The only place you'll see this type of antiquated analysis is potentially during arbitration cases (which are notably farcical) or from some fans/writers who have chosen to reject the progress that analytics has made in the past twenty (forty?) years.

 

On 6/15/2021 at 7:01 AM, 89Topps said:

I’d sooner Bonds be left out due to his domestic violence history than his steroid use.

This is my biggest hold up with Bonds as well, and I don't think enough has been said in this forum on this topic, unfortunately. For those who might not know the history, here's an article that details the issues:

https://tht.fangraphs.com/how-should-the-giants-handle-barry-bonds-number-retirement/

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Reading about Pud Galvin, who had the best season ever by WAR and this came up.  Not making any type of a point, just thought it was interesting and also funny.

 

5d.png

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7 minutes ago, GamblorLA said:

Reading about Pud Galvin, who had the best season ever by WAR and this came up.  Not making any type of a point, just thought it was interesting and also funny.

 

5d.png

 

Ah yes, the "Godfather of Juicing"! Get him out of the HOF immediately!

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I'm still more annoyed that Bonds was forced into retirement when he was still one of the very best hitters in baseball. He probably could have played 3-5 more years. I enjoy seeing players fizzle out until they can't anymore. At least Ortiz/Mariano chose to quit while they were still great.

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Just now, brockpapersizer said:

I'm still more annoyed that Bonds was forced into retirement when he was still one of the very best hitters in baseball. He probably could have played 3-5 more years. I enjoy seeing players fizzle out until they can't anymore. At least Ortiz/Mariano chose to quit while they were still great.

Bonds definitely could have DHed for those years...  His last season a 1.045 OPS?  He was definitely black-balled and he could have easily helped out some AL teams...

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